windows again- hardwood DG, prices?

[tycarregydwr]

Just finally managed to actually get a quote (after weeks of chasing), this is for 7 sash windows and a half-glazed door, in hardwood with double glazing, all primed, but not painted. Not including VAT and not including fitting (charged extra at £14/hr). It's £4,500 for the windows and £800 for the door. I have no idea if this is a reasonable price - I hope someone on here may have opinions on it as I've not had much luck with other DIY forums.

I like the joiner, he comes on a recommendation and he was keen to match the style of the remaining original sashes (two of them and photos), rather than just slap any old thing in, but as I say, I haven't a clue on costs. (Am still waiting to hear from another joiner).

Thank you!

 

[plasticpigeon]

Sounds pretty cheap for the windows, I've always thought it was about £1000 per sash but I may be wrong, and it is not always easy to find people wanting to match what is there. Not sure about the door, it depends on how elaborate it is.

 

[MdB]

Sounds reasonable to me. We have been quoted £750 for iroko (I think) and £1000 for oak per window.

 

[Feltwell]

Sounds very reasonable to me, providing that you've seen other examples of his work and are happy with the quality. Hardwood is an all embracing term - do you know what he's actually using?

Others on here are much more knowledgeable on timbers than I am, but something like Douglas Fir will be both durable and environmentally responsible, whereas tropical hardwoods are not so good.

 

[Zebra]

I chose not to use hardwood. As far as I understand, the FSC certification on it can be unreliable to say the least. I understand the chain can be OK at this end (your joiner buys in good faith, his supplier buys in good faith, but at the other end there's nothing to say that an orang-utan wasn't living in that tree until it got cut down to make your window, and whether another one got planted in its place is anyone's guess.
On that basis, and on the recommendation on another forum (the Green Building Forum) of a recognised window expert who also posts on this forum, I chose to have a good quality softwood, Douglas Fir, and to paint them in Holkhams Linseed Oil paint, which as it's breathable, prevents the decay caused by non-breathable paints. There are softwood windows in period buildings after all which have been around for over 100 years.
My windows are side-opening casements not sliding sashes. Two of them are around 1800 x 800 with 12 panes. Two of them are around 1200 x 800 with 8 panes.
The lot came to £3400 for the timber and joinery. The glass, 24mm panes (4mm glass and a 16mm gap) comes to £680, with nothing for the fitting since I'm foolish enough to choose to fit them myself.
They're lovely.

 

[tycarregydwr]

thanks all. i really don't think softwood of any kind is an option, where we are is just so very wet, and the replacements are going in the part of the house that is continually battered by weather, we've been assured that they will rot in a matter of years (by people whose opinion i trust). but i take your point on 'hardwood' - i will try to find out what specifically he is using.
i have seen his work and it looks good to my admittedly totally untrained eye - a couple of places in the village have his windows and he had some new ones in the van when he stopped by.

 

[worms]

i really don't think softwood of any kind is an option, where we are is just so very wet, and the replacements are going in the part of the house that is continually battered by weather, we've been assured that they will rot in a matter of years (by people whose opinion i trust).

There are softwood windows in period buildings after all which have been around for over 100 years.

I'm with Zebra on this one. If you can get good, affordable hardwood, then fine. But I wouldn't be so against softwood if you can get decent quality and look after it properly. As Zebra says, there are plenty of Victorian pine windows still around, many in parts of Scotland that would more than compete with the wettest parts of Wales for harshness of environment. Perhaps people tend to judge only by the standards of the poor quality mass-market softwood windows that were put into many buildings in the 70s and 80s.

 

[middi]

That price is quite reasonable.

Middi

 

[skier-hughes]

There is hardwood you should buy and hardwood you shouldn't. The same goes for Softwood. Our softwood douglas fir windows are slow grown really tight vertical grain and clear of knots and once painted you'd be hard tasked to guess if it was soft or hard wood as it is very heavy.
We pay a premium price for it, from a very good timber merchant, who has been around for years and years.
This will take donkeys years to rot, if maintained properly.

It is nothing like the softwood you commonly buy and should not be confused with it.

 

[88v8]

Those prices sound very good, and his hourly charge is piffling. At that level, you can afford to feed him Plain chocolate digestives and Earl Grey.

As you plan to paint the windows, I would be careful about hardwood. Some hardwoods, such as iroko, are very oily and it's hard to keep paint on them.
Softwood can be good, but it needs to be slow-grown, naturally seasoned, and moisture controlled (do I mean 'controlled' ?) anyway not the usual soggy stuff one buys from a timber merchant.
And, thoroughly painted all round before installation, not just afterwards.

Take your point about the damp though - visiting Ireland in 1994 - a soggy country - I noticed the plastic window plague had alredy taken a serious hold, years ahead of England.

Ivor

 

[worms]

Take your point about the damp though - visiting Ireland in 1994 - a soggy country - I noticed the plastic window plague had alredy taken a serious hold, years ahead of England.

Its not all down to damp! The West Highlands (not in the least a damp location! :roll: ) had a similar plague, caused by a pincer movement of incomers with cash "doing up" the old croft houses and the Crofters Commission providing grants and loans for housing improvement for the locals. Just compare the Highlands & Islands section of any self-catering holiday brochure with its more southerly equivalent and you will see what I mean! [/rant]

 

[Feltwell]

Our softwood douglas fir windows are slow grown really tight vertical grain and clear of knots and once painted you'd be hard tasked to guess if it was soft or hard wood as it is very heavy.
We pay a premium price for it, from a very good timber merchant, who has been around for years and years.

Who are you using Graham? If local to us, I could well be interested. I've an Ebay'd sash window to modify and need some timber for that, plus various bits of scarfing in to do on my bay window. I'd rather do the work in a timber that is likely to last!

 

[Flyfisher]

As mentioned above, there's a huge range of quality when it comes to softwood. I may have posted this photo before, but here are two bits of softwood. One piece was removed from an old partition wall built, I think in the 1930s and the other is some general purpose carcassing softwood I bought a few years ago.

I'll leave you to guess which is which. :wink:

 

[skier-hughes]

http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/index.html warwickshire, so further from you, but they'll deliver or you might be able to collect, don't know where you travel these days.
Best wood I've found around here.

 

[tycarregydwr]

That's a very enlightening photo! Point taken, I Will have a more detailed chat w the joiner about wood.

 

[AMc]

No expert but I would have more confidence in the certification of European or American Oak compared to tropical hardwoods.
We used Iroko for some cills and thresholds here because I knew no better at the time and "believed" in the FSC certification I was told it had.
I wish I'd used slightly more expensive wood and not had the nagging feeling that I may have been contributing to illegal forestry but it's too late now.
I can second the comments about Iroko being unpaintable though. My threshold was carefully painted in so called Yacht varnish which it shrugged off in less than a year. There is no obvious issue and I've left it bare since.

The window prices sound good and the labour rate is also excellent. I'd bite their hand off and pay the extra for wood you can trust. Also don't scrimp on the glazing and get the best units with low emissivity glass (ideally soft coat) and argon filled and guaranteed. We used Planitherm from Saint Gobain which outperformed Pilkington K which seemed to be the default option at most glazing contractors as the hard coat allows them to store it longer and handle it less carefully.

 

[skier-hughes]

We also use the planitherm argon filled, soft coat glass. Or supplier makes it in house to order. We also have the self cleaning on the upstairs windows, very good.

 

[tycarregydwr]

The joiner who gave us that quote said that it would be for Sapile, which is in the mahogony family. He said he does source it from certified sustainably managed forests but as a previous poster said, that's not an iron-clad guarantee. He said that he can do oak, it would be a bit more expensive, he'd have to re-issue the quote, but he personally wouldn't bother with oak if we intend to paint it (which we do).

I will go and ask the other joiner as well, but from what I understand from another person in the village he doesn't tend to use any softwoods either.

 

[michael]

Not sure if its suitable for windows, but if you hold on, there could soon be a glut of felled ash trees on the market at knock down prices. Bad news generally I know, but perhaps an opportunity for a few.

 

[Flyfisher]

I wouldn't hold your breath for ash to become available at knockdown prices. I read something recently suggesting that good condition ash trees should be felled before the disease strikes and the wood stockpiled. A bit fanciful perhaps, but a diminishing resource is unlikely to become cheaper.

It's a sad prospect but all the recent arguments over lack of prompt action seems a bit pointless for an airborne disease with no effective treatment.