Will This Method of Laying Flagstones Work...

[wolfpaw]

Re. a previous thread I started, I'm now getting close to laying the flagstones I mentioned before (the ones with cement all over them - I ended up using a grinder and I'm happy with the result). Anyway, about laying them. I was talking with someone recently and he suggested that I use nothing but a totally dry mix of sand and lime, mixing the lime and the sand before adding it to the floor, wetting it with a sprayer before laying the flagstones and then just bedding the flagstones on top. As previously said, the flagstones are massive, up to 120cm long, 50cm wide and up to 5 inches thick so I think the weight will be an advantage once they're in place. The subsoil is a very compact, hard clay and I'm not using a hardcore or a waterproof membrane. The idea, I'm hoping, is that humidity from the soil with rise through the sand and lime, setting it over time and providing a stable bed for the flagstones. Using a dry mix means that I can remove the flags until I get the level right (the thought of doing it with a wet mortar is not pleasant). It's in an entrance hall so it's not hugely important if the flagstones 'breath' humidity. Anyone got any thoughts on this idea?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Wolfpaw - I did something similar with slate flagstones (each one weighed circa 90kg!) and I lost a stone and a half laying that floor over about 4 weeks! Watch your back - I was bent double for weeks, and my 5 year old came out in sympathy with a hernia :shock:

At that size and weight, I doubt you need a wet mix, as they won't be moving. Traditionally floors were often laid direct onto the soil, or sand. You could do likewise, and thus provide a bed to ensure that despite any uneveness on the undersides of the flags, you have a level floor on top.

I have used a dry mix for pointing the floor and wetted afterwards, but found that the mix "slumped" a little and I had to add more wet mix on top, so may as well have wet pointed in the first place. Applying dry pointing is much quicker though - you just brush it over the floor.

Good luck and please post us some pics!

 

[wolfpaw]

Wolfpaw - I did something similar with slate flagstones (each one weighed circa 90kg!) and I lost a stone and a half laying that floor over about 4 weeks! Watch your back - I was bent double for weeks, and my 5 year old came out in sympathy with a hernia :shock:

At that size and weight, I doubt you need a wet mix, as they won't be moving. Traditionally floors were often laid direct onto the soil, or sand. You could do likewise, and thus provide a bed to ensure that despite any uneveness on the undersides of the flags, you have a level floor on top.

I have used a dry mix for pointing the floor and wetted afterwards, but found that the mix "slumped" a little and I had to add more wet mix on top, so may as well have wet pointed in the first place. Applying dry pointing is much quicker though - you just brush it over the floor.

Good luck and please post us some pics!

I'm rather nervous about the prospect of moving them I must admit, but I have an electric winch slung across the floor joists above which I can place where I need it, and a couple of helpers. Providing I live to tell the tale I'll post some pics when it's finished (if it's finished...) :shock:

 

[chuckey]

For handling paving stones I have made a couple of "handles". These are basically high tensile fencing wire bent into a 4 " square with the twisted joint along a long side and covered with a piece of metal tubing. You may need to make yours a rectangle of 4" X 6". They are slipped over the corners of a flag so they can be moved about. when the flag fits OK the handle can be twisted sideways so its in a mortar gap, then lifted out. Must be high tensile, soft wire will not take the weight, it will also distort so it will not come out easily.
I wonder if big cable ties would take the weight of a flag. Just cut them of below the surface when the flag is seated properly.
Frank

 

[wolfpaw]

I'm about 90% done. I need to buy two more large flags as I ran out and fill in along one edge. It's gone very, very well so far though. I got hold of an electric winch that I slung between the overhead floor joists and which I used to drag the more massive stones up the steps into the house on planks and using lengths of bamboo as rollers!

 

[Penners]

wolfpaw - your winch idea was very sensible indeed.

I say the following not is search of sympathy but as a heartfelt warning to everyone doing tough, physical work: LOOK AFTER YOUR BACK.

I didn't. In youth and middle-age I was cocky, and thought I was physically indestructable. I used to take enormous liberties with my back - and now I'm paying the price. I suffered two prolapsed discs a few months before I retired. I've had very bad sciatica which has left me having to think twice about lifting even a supermarket basket. I have a partly numb left leg and have backache virtually all the time. And there's little prospect of it ever getting much better.

I'm not whingeing - I'm warning. Don't try to lift heavy items - take a few minutes extra to summon help, or to rig up some mechanical means of doing the lifting.

A wrecked back happens in seconds and lasts a lifetime.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Big hugs to you (((( )))) and this warning should join my knee warning. :lol:

 

[Moo]

Another warning:

I've noticed that all the middle-aged cripples I encounter were all very sporty in their youth. I, on the other hand, having perfected the art of 'getting out of games', have an intact spine + fully functioning joints.

 

[wolfpaw]

I've been very wary about lifting or moving these things as I've had major back problems before. I had my first prolapsed disc when I was 14 and had it operated on with a discetomy when I was 19! Then 20 years later, and about 18 months ago, I had a herniated disc below the one that went before. The disc literally ruptured and blew its contents out against the spinal column. I was in agony for months but time and physiotherapy have helped a great deal. I now have two 'dead' discs at the base of my spine and I'm not yet 40... :|

So yes, take care of your back 8)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hugs to people with sore bits. Sciatica is hell. My discectomy was a success fortunately (6 years ago now) but I wonder what will happen to my back over time.

Discs can of course be bulging, even prolapsed, and give their owner no pain at all. It's all about how the nerves are positioned.

What the body hates more than anything is being rocketed from one extreme to the other. I went from being a bookish child and teenager to teaching salsa and my spine couldn't cope with the sudden change. The osteos say the ideal day for a back is one of constant gentle movement, gentle lifting and carrying, never being too sedentary, never having too much exertion.

 

[Feltwell]

The osteos say the ideal day for a back is one of constant gentle movement, gentle lifting and carrying, never being too sedentary, never having too much exertion.

Sounds like the ideal day for the whole of me, not just my back! :wink:

I get shoulder pains if I spend too long sat at the computer using the mouse. Alas my work doesn't allow me to do much about this.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

wolfpaw - your winch idea was very sensible indeed.

I say the following not is search of sympathy but as a heartfelt warning to everyone doing tough, physical work: LOOK AFTER YOUR BACK.

I didn't. In youth and middle-age I was cocky, and thought I was physically indestructable. I used to take enormous liberties with my back - and now I'm paying the price. I suffered two prolapsed discs a few months before I retired. I've had very bad sciatica which has left me having to think twice about lifting even a supermarket basket. I have a partly numb left leg and have backache virtually all the time. And there's little prospect of it ever getting much better.

I'm not whingeing - I'm warning. Don't try to lift heavy items - take a few minutes extra to summon help, or to rig up some mechanical means of doing the lifting.

A wrecked back happens in seconds and lasts a lifetime.

Penners - it is indeed a blessing you have Mrs P to do all the manual heavy work for you now! I presume she is no longer malingering? :wink:

Seriously though, sage advice indeed. I must admit that other than a sack truck and steel-capped boots (to "walk" the flags on my toes around the room!), I didn't take any precautions when laying circa 60 m2 of slate flags last year. I lost a stone and a half in 6 weeks from the sheer physical effort of transporting and laying the flags and mixing the screed. My back was painful as I was doing it but has not given me trouble since.

I find controlling the rotavator to be more strenuous than just about anything (except the post slammer when I'm fencing). I ache for a week after that!