Who to do timber frame repairs?

[malcolm]

Our scaffolding went up this weekend and the 1910 first floor structural timber frame needs more repair than I had hoped. The drainage strategy of the bay window probably hasn't helped. I've attached some photos.

I'm not going to have time to have a go at repairs and I'm not much good at woodwork anyway. What type of person would you approach for quotes to replace bits and pieces of the frame? I googled a bit and found a some expensive looking timber frame specialists who banged on about conservation and heritage and would likely charge accordingly. Seems to be a fuzzy area between building and carpentry. Any recommendations for contractors would be much appreciated too.

The bay window roof needs to slope the other way into a curved gutter. I'm not sure how to re-finish the wood and infill after the work. I think the infill is concrete rendered brick painted with waterproof paint. I don't think the wood will end up neat enough to leave bare, but perhaps a stain or linseed paint?

 

[livias]

Hi Malcolm

I am currently sourcing a good local timber frame repairer throuh my extensive source of hot contacts. Hope to have some names this week and I will let you know when I do

Ax

 

[malcolm]

Thanks Anna. Hot contacts would be much appreciated. We can try them out here before they do your frame.

 

[Penners]

I googled a bit and found a some expensive looking timber frame specialists who banged on about conservation and heritage and would likely charge accordingly

What?! :roll: What on earth would conservation and heritage have to do with carrying out a specialist timber-frame repair to a historic period property?

Ooh - hang on.... Isn't that the whole raison d'etre of this website and forum?

 

[malcolm]

It's the charging accordingly part I want to avoid unless necessary. I'd rather hoped that folk would suggest what type of tradesman might normally be employed to do this sort of work. Being new to all this I don't like replying on Google alone as finding the right thing depends on searching for the right thing. I find members on the forum very helpful for that.

Still, the house is in restoration mode now. The surprise for the day is the render on the side appears not to be 1910 concrete as previously suspected, but instead earlier lime render applied on lath which is no longer attached to whatever wall might be behind. There are some old bits in that area so it might be some more timber frame.

 

[Penners]

Ooh look - a boil-in-the-bag house!!

 

[malcolm]

It turns out timber framers are busy and you need to book ahead a little which conflicts with my approach to project management. Sorry building. Not the end of the world as this phase of building is mostly to keep building regs happy with the change of use and I can put the scaffolding back up some other time to sort the frame.

To make the best of a bad job does this look like oak? Otherwise any guesses at the wood type. I've started stripping the gloss paint from the timber and the other timbers have much closer grain spacing, maybe 1mm. This one was cut funny.

 

[Penners]

It's very difficult to tell, but on the basis of that picture it doesn't look like oak to me. I could believe that it's softwood. Is it possible for you to take a more close-up photo of the grain?

 

[skier-hughes]

Looks like a softwood to me

 

[formerly known as]

another vote for soft wood.

 

[malcolm]

I've taken a photo of another bit which is much closer grained. The wood seems to vary between the close grain and the open grain of the photo above, sometimes in the same bit of wood. There are very few knots and the grain is very straight. Occasionally when stripping I would find a very sappy bit of wood and the smell is very much like softwood. While writing this post a carpenter came around and he said it is 150 year old pine. (Not a bad guess - the frame was built in 1910.) The carpenter came around to quote for rebuilding a bay window, but after stripping the frame isn't as bad as I thought and only needs a few small repairs so one of us can do that too.

The wood looks really good in a natural finish but the condition of the surface suggests it has always been painted. The original paint was brown and the remains felt very waxy when removing it with a hot air gun. I suspect a linseed paint would be the best way to finish the wood. The choice of whether to go for a pigment might depend on whether I can get hold of matching wood. I'm not going to use new pine as they make that from cheese.

 

[Penners]

I'm not going to use new pine as they make that from cheese.

That's a gross generalisation, and depends entirely on what type and grade of pine you use. The rubbish sold in certain DIY stores would probably disappoint you, but if you go to a specialist timber merchant you'll have a much better choice.

If you use Scots Pine (Pinus Sylvestris) try to buy timber sourced from the coldest country possible. The colder the climate, the closer together the growth rings and the denser the timber. So Scandinavian or Russian pine is invariably much better quality than more southern sources (such as UK). The best grade of such pine is called Unsorted; the second-best is called Fifths. Below this there is Sixths - it's for things like fence posts and feather-edge sawn boards. New timber will initially look very white against your old stuff, but as time passes it will "mellow" and get richer in colour. The speed of this process will vary according to the degree of exposure to daylight, which catalyses the oxidisation of the resins in the timber.

Alternatively, have a look at some Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) from North America. It's a very stable, durable softwood and usually has far fewer knots than Baltic Pine. The cheapest grades are categorised as Structural (although they are still stable and durable - just less visually appealing) and the better-looking grades are in a category called Appearance - usually broken down into Selects, Finish or Common.

Don't dismiss softwood on the basis of DIY store rubbish.

 

[malcolm]

Thanks for that. I'll try some timber merchants armed with those things to ask for.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I was also going to suggest Timber Merchants. There is an excellent one in Haynes nr Old Warden, not so far from you. I cannot remember their name but Google will help you.

 

[Flyfisher]

Don't dismiss softwood on the basis of DIY store rubbish.

Hear hear!

And a good excuse to roll out this old photo that I've posted a few times over the years . . .

One piece of softwood was from an old section of stud wall I removed a few years ago and the other piece is modern 'carcassing'-quality softwood from a well known builders merchant. I'll let you all guess which one is which :wink:

 

[Penners]

Very interesting photographs, FF. They clearly demonstrate the enormous difference in the width of annular rings in trees grown in warm (left) and cold (right) climates. However, it must also be said that the differences can also be due to the species/variety of softwood, as well as the climate.

The lighter-coloured part of each ring shows the early, rapid spring growth of the tree, which is quite soft and fibrous. The darker, denser bands are the late-season growth. It is these bands of denser lignin that give the timber its durability and rigidity - so the closer together they are, the better the quality of the timber.

 

[skier-hughes]

The douglas fir I've bought for my windows has been very close grained, like FlyFishers picture and it's weight is getting on for that of Oak!

 

[malcolm]

I went for Douglas Fir. I am told the original slow grown redwood is resilient, and when we cut 3 inches off the bottom of the section that had been sitting in the water for 100 years it still smelled strongly of sap. But the original stuff is difficult to find.

It was only the bay window frame that was completely rotten and needed to be replaced. Other bits can be patched. I found a proper craftsman carpenter who reproduced the original profiles and installed the new bit of frame and a new window frame which are absolutely brilliant.

The same guy will hopefully also make me a new oak gable. I reckon the money saving tip in answer to my original question is to break down the work into trades (get people to do stuff you can't do yourself), then employ each trade when needed on a day rate (often half price because you take on the risk).

 

[Zebra]

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph.

 

[Penners]

Me too, with the (rather bleedin' obvious) rider that it's advisable to give each trade a full and clear brief in writing on your expectations and requirements. Unless, that is, you've used them before and trust them implicitly.