Who owns a boundary?

[vicky whitworth]

Hello again, long story but there is a field that abuts our garden. A farmer rents the field from the landowner and puts his cattle into it. One of the cows died unexpectedly and we are told that the PM showed that it had been poisoned by laurel (I have not seen the PM report and I have my doubts that it is this specific). Anyway the boundary between our garden and field consists of a laurel hedge (our side), a gap of 2 foot and then a hedgerow (field side) all on a bank. There is no ditch either side to speak of although the ground drops on the field side but not into a ditch arrangement.

In the past the farmer has used a machine to cut the hedge from the field side resulting in the side nearer us not getting cut because of the width of the bank. We have then sometimes cut our side with hand shears but up to now have never cut the laurel section.

Anyway a couple of months ago we paid a friend to cut the laurel (he's the odd job man of the village) (paid by the hour) and he put the cut branches into the gap between the laurel and the hedgerow. Not thrown over into the farmer's field and not into the hedgerow but into the gap ie: into the middle.

The farmer alleges that his cow atw the laurel and died. He asked us to claim on our home insurance. I rang the insurance company who said we have no liability but one of the questions asked was who owns the bank/hedges, and we don't know. Our Deeds are silent on the matter so is there a rule that is applied when ownership is unclear?

I have a view that if it is our bank and hedges ie: the cut laurel was put on our land then the farmer should have prevented his stock pushing through the hedgerow to get to it (the hedgerow is very gappy).

The insurer was shocked that the farmer has no insurance himself on his stock. But was also of the view that the person with the liability was the odd job man who was paid to cut the laurel (he, of course, also has no insurance).

I feel that we are being taken for mugs as we are the only people who have insurance. But I'm after a view not on the rights and wrongs of the case but on the issue of ownership of the hedges. Any advice much appreciated. Vicky

 

[vicky whitworth]

Just wanted to add that on my land deeds there are little symbols which are small circles with a short line coming off drawn at places round our land. I have always assumed they show springs but why I would assume that I don't know. Might they be like T marks showing that we own the boundary?
Thanks, Vicky

 

[JoceAndChris]

Dear me. What a pickle! I can't give any definitive answers but my understanding is that the ownership of a hedgerow/hedge can only be arrived at through specific measuring out. For example, when we bought our field we really, really hoped we'd then own the North facing hedgerow. It's a fine old hedgerow, with a steam running along it in winter. We paid (£400!!) to have the 3 acres that we bought measured out, and unfortunately the boundary line goes right slap bang through the middle of the largest trees, so legally the hedgerow belongs to both parties. We ended up running our stock proof fencing on our side of it, rather than felling it, and from the sounds of if your farmer ought to have done that too.

During the land surveyor's time here I picked his brains about land and boundary disputes. He said it's a minefield and there is rarely a definitive right and wrong answer. Even measuring out, he said, is a question of judgement and not exact science. For example, in the new field we bought, the accurate measurement showed that the South boundary of it ought to be in our garden, but that was ludicrous from the point of view of having to relandscape a section of the garden and haha, and so we ran our fence just fractionally into our neighbour's land. He thought that was how it should be anyway - so no problems. But what's on paper rarely tallies precisely with how it really is.

Go back to your deeds, look at precisely how much land your garden has and measure it out. I think the hedge will be yours - certainly all the hedgerows surrounding our property are ours and the farmers have never touched them.

I'm sure I've read that when you have livestock they're your responsibility, and I think what he's suggesting sounds manipulative and wrong.

 

[d49xc]

The T on any plans will show who has the DUTY to maintain the boundary markers in a fit and proper state.
The boundary itself is a wafer thin line and is not as such OWNED.
Typically a boundary may be marked in practice by a wire fence which due to its thinness will probably be on the actual boundary line itself.
A Hedge (mainly due its thickness) is more likely to be on one side or other of the actual boundary.

 

[Flyfisher]

Defining a boundary seems to be a surprisingly complicated business and Joce's post is a good summary of my understanding of things after a few similar issues I've had with boundaries. With respect to the esteemed PPUKers, I'd suggest that www.gardenlaw.co.uk might be a better place for such questions. I've certainly found good advice there.

I would recommend reading these pages before posting your question on their forum (should you choose to do so of course):
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/boundaries.html
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3149

As to any actual liability for the dead cow, the usual advice is to admit nothing. I'd be very surprised if the farmer has no insurance but, either way, as you seem to have insurance I would expect it to include legal expenses cover. So, really, it's up to the farmer to prove you are liable for his dead cow and for your insurance company to help you with any such claim.

Unless the cow in question is some sort of unique rare breed then I doubt there is much money at stake, implying that it's probably not worthwhile pursuing a contentious claim. But that's up to the farmer.

I don't really know the legal position of your subcontractor who clipped the laurel hedge but if it can be established that he did, in fact, dispose of the cuttings on the farmers land then I'd assume he'd be guilty of fly-tipping and thus liable for the consequential damages. I've no idea where that leaves you, though I suspect the subcontractor could easily claim you instructed him to dispose of the cuttings in that place, believing it to be your own land.

Which brings us back to the boundary. If the laurel was on your land then the farmer has no right allowing his cattle to access your land.

As Joce points out, a detailed boundary survey can be quite expensive - perhaps the farmer will decide that it's not worth paying for such a thing, in which case it's hard to see how he could make a definitive claim that the laurel cuttings were on his land.

 

[middi]

I think it is all the fault of the " stupid cow"
As the cow ( being stupid) was unable to think for itself, now dead and unable to sue for compensation, then the ownner of the cow is responsible ,or must be stupid, for allowing his stupid cow to eat poisonous "fodder".
If you maintain that your "hedge man" was not stupid and did not throw the laurel cuttings over the fence, that leaves you or your insurance company being " labeled" by the owner to accept it was your stupidity that killed the cow.
I always thought that where there was danger of animals stupid enough to eat poisonous foods, farmers, if not stupid, would erect those kind of electrified fences to keep the at bay.

Am I being stupid !!!. Well, it may be a coincidence but It was not my stupidity that killed the cow :wink:

Middi

 

[88v8]

I would guess that the field hedge is his and the laurel is yours, but the gap between.... anyone's guess.
He should be cutting and laying his hedge to make it stock-proof, not hacking it with a machine, but hey, what farmer has time to do that. So he should have a stock-proof fence on his side of his hedge.

I assume you don't want to get into bad relations with the farmer. Perhaps without admitting liability you could offer to pay for the cow on condition that he erects and maintains a stock-proof fence on his side of the hedge. Preferably that would be written into your deeds so avoid future doubt. The fact that he only rents the land adds another layer of complication. I wonder what his contract with the landowner says about boundaries and responsibility for them.

Our 'new' house has field boundary on three sides. The hedge, such as it is, is ours, there is a stock fence which is the farmer's, but this is only by custom and practice and verbal agreement. A knotty topic to be sure.
I wonder how many people know that laurel is poisonous to cows. Not me, for sure.

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

Apparently, laurel can result in cyanide poisoning - if this website is to be believed: http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/e/english_laurel_poisoning/intro.htm

 

[Onetap]

The farmer alleges that his cow atw the laurel and died. He asked us to claim on our home insurance.

I think I'd just tell him you're not liable and you won't claim on your insurance. Only get your insurers involved if he starts a County Court claim for costs. I doubt that he will.

If he's not insured, why would he have paid for a Vet to do a PM on the cow? Do all dead livestock get an autopsy? Maybe he has insurance and has found that poisoning by plants isn't covered.

 

[Pford75]

I can't add to the advice on boundaires other than to say that it is complex and the only way to really explore your situation in any more certainty would be to employ a conveyancing solicitor. This however is likely to prove more costly than any of the other avenues available to you.

If (and I agree with others than the PM would not be that certain), it is the case that the cow died from eating laurel, I would suggest that it is impossible to know whether it ate laurel cuttings on the ground, or ate from the laurel hedge after pushing through the other hedgerow (which you describe as 'gappy'). If this is the case, then I have the following observations:-

1. If the laurel hedgerow is the farmers, then you have a right to trim this hedgerow where it overhangs your property and you must return the cuttings to his side (which you have done)
2. If the laurel hedgerow is yours, then I would argue that the farmer should have maintained an adequate boundary to prevent his livestock accessing the hedge and killing themselves.

Either way, I would suggest that you reach an agreement on who owns the laurel - If it is you, then he must erect proper boundaries to prevent a repeat. If it is him, then you have a right to trim the laurel (unless he decides to remove it)

 

[vicky whitworth]

Thank you so much. We don't want to get wrong with anyone but I'm not prepared to be taken for a mug. He alleges the cow was worth £800. He should have had insurance. I have now told him that my insurance company have said we have no liability, which is what the loss adjuster told me. I don't think they will pursue a claim against us - it's now at least four months since the cow died, but I think they will grumble on about it because, to be honest, they don't have anything better to do with their time. I'm not prepared to just give them money as I just don't see that we did anything wrong. All we did is pay someone to cut a hedge which we may or may not own but even if we don't own in along our boundary and overhanging our garden. We didn't know laurel was poisonous. Even the farmer said he didn't know laurel was poisonous. There are still bits of dead laurel in the gap on the bank which the farmer hasn't removed. I said to him wasn't he worried about that but he just asked us to remove it and clearly isn't too bothered.
Once I knew laurel was poisonous I picked up every single dead leaf that was near where the chooks live.
The thought about why did they pay for a PM is a good one. It must cost a fair bit.
I might, when I see the landowner ask him who he thinks owns the hedges and the bank.
I love rural life sometimes :evil:

 

[Flyfisher]

We don't want to get wrong with anyone but I'm not prepared to be taken for a mug.

That's a very good summary of such situations - they involve far more than the bare legal niceties but it's amazing how people will 'try it on' sometimes.

As for the PM, I'm not entirely sure but I suspect that, in these days of BSE etc., any unexpected death of a farm animal requires one.

 

[Lime]

.
The thought about why did they pay for a PM is a good one. It must cost a fair bit.
I might, when I see the landowner ask him who he thinks owns the hedges and the bank.
I love rural life sometimes :evil:

I don't expect he did have a post mortem carried out.
I suspect the vet may have just opened the cow's stomachs and jumped to a conclusion.

I would not ask the farmer who owns the hedge.
Claim it is yours.

What evidence is there that the laurel found in the cow was not browsed directly off the hedge?

 

[skier-hughes]

Just to be certain, as he has asked you to remove your cut laurel and you now know laurel to be poisonous, I would remove all cut laurel.
Next cow dies, he says I did ask you to remove it, he ahs a better claim.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Good for you Vicky, holding your own with this character. It isn't your fault, at all.

Just on the chooks and the toxins - the clever things know what to eat, in this regard they're brighter than ruminants. Mine are free ranging with dozens of laurel trees and many many yew trees, as well as plenty of laburnum and a few ragworts. They leave it all well alone.

My sheep lady came though, took one look at the garden and took her sheep away again. She said it was too easy for the sheep to break in from the field to the garden and once there they'd eat yew and die within an hour.

Seeing how aware she was of it, I'm also inclined to think the farmer was persuaded to jump to the conclusion of poisoning.

A post mortem on a chicken is around £150 - not sure how much for a cow but you'd need to get the body to the post mortem place - a lot of costly messing about.

I can't believe he's still allowing his livestock to graze with laurel when he thinks he's lost one to it already.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Thank you all for your supportive words. I will remove the last bits of dead laurel and I'll claim the hedge and bank as my own. £150 for a chicken PM - blimey. If you open up my chooks they are full of tomato (their very favourite snack) and dead mouse (their second favourite snack) provided by Albert Herring who leaves them lying around as clearly they are a plaything to him and not a snack at all.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Cows dropping dead for no obvious reason are picked up and a post mortem done for free. I think anthrax worries are one reason.

"If you suspect that your stock may be infected with or has died from a notifiable disease or if you have had sudden/unexpected deaths in your livestock, you must notify your local Animal Health Divisional Office (AHDO) immediately for further investigation."


You are meant to offer trimmings/arisings to owners after cutting overhang but not dump them on the owner's side. If they don't want them it is up to you to dispose of them.

You can't claim off your insurance company for his cow, he has to claim against you and then you notify your company who then deal with the claim.

 

[Onetap]

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4694&sid=0558e0f9fd1aa76aa9c4ea003612b338

 

[vicky whitworth]

Thanks Onetap, that was really helpful. If we own the bank and hedges then that cow trespassed - and no good comes of trespassing! If we don't own it then the farmer should have removed the laurel (his land, his laurel). It's more tricky if the boundary runs right down the middle (I have no evidence that it does). Logic says this: our cottage was built on waste land on the edge of the common - possibly as a squat cottage. When it was built the owner must have put up some sort of boundary around the land to prevent the animals on the common straying into the 'garden'. It would seem logical that if you did that you would put the hedge on the outer edge of your land and the bank on your own land on the inside of the hedge. That makes all the bank and all the hedges ours. Get your cow off my land. I feel like suing the farmer for the stress he has caused me :?

 

[skier-hughes]

I'd be careful if you are only squatting!!!!!! They might throw you out :wink: