Who can I call to help advise us on heating our house?

[truenorth]

Morning all

We bought a beautiful old barn conversion last Nov and it is fab. It was originally built in 1320 and converted around 87/88. As lovely as it is it's bloomin cold. We've replaced all rads for larger, period ones and upgraded the boiler to a modern, effient one. But it's still very cold.

The walls are approx 2ft solid stone, and we've mainly got vaulted ceiling (we live upstairs and sleep/wash downstairs). As is usual the windows are pretty small too.

Who can I call to come and give me advise? I'm almost thinking I might need a thermal image producing to show where the cold spots are. But then it would be great if someone could convert that into a series of things that need doing.

I'm in the Manchester area. Even if I get an idea if the type if job description someone would have that offers this service I can then go searching.

Many thanks
TN

 

[robgil]

who fitted the boiler and rads? and what is the average inside temperature?

 

[TomW]

Hi truenorth, I'm certainly no expert and others will be along who can give better advice than me, but I guess the problem comes down to how the barn was converted originally, how much insulation and draft proofing was put in at that time.
You may also want to try posting on the Green building forum, where you will find much information and expert advice; http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/

 

[Flyfisher]

My very limited experience, via a friend's barn conversion, is that the heat ends up in the roof apex and it always seemed cool at floor level. Obviously it depends on the size and layout, but they can be large spaces to heat.

A brief scan of http://www.mybarnconversion.com/ suggests a fair bit of discussion on barn heating schemes, with a forum as well.

 

[Lime]

In large thick-walled buildings much depends on how long the building is heated.
Even if almost air-tight, the mass of the building will consume a large amount of energy in order to raise the internal temperature.
Old barns were not designed to be heated.

 

[truenorth]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies.

Rads and boiler was installed by a reputable company, all rads are the correct btu for each room.

We're not sure how much insulation was used and we'd have to strip the plasterboard or tiles from the roof to check. Neither I'd rush to do!

Was hoping someone may know of a heating expert that could tell us if the heat us being lost through the walls or windows or roof etc. At least if we know we can make a decision of whether we do it or not. At the moment the rads are piping hot but the rooms chilly.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks TN

 

[robgil]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies.

Rads and boiler was installed by a reputable company, all rads are the correct btu for each room.



Thanks TN

You need to get them back to do the job properly. Did they explain to you before the installation that the system wasn't going to work properly?

 

[Lime]

We're not sure how much insulation was used and we'd have to strip the plasterboard or tiles from the roof to check. Neither I'd rush to do!

Insulation fitted during the 80s is unlikely to be anywhere near as good as expected in today's buildings.
Often it was seen as an extra cost and corners were often cut.

At the moment the rads are piping hot but the rooms chilly.
Am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thanks TN

Your comment suggests that they have not been hot for long.
IME old large buildings need constant heat to be comfortable.

 

[benmc]

Lets see if I can help.

2 years ago we moved into a 1907 Church Conversion. Since then we have opened up rooms and created a number of open plan spaces. The walls of the Church are 18 inch solid brick with no insulation and limited insulation in other places. So I know what you are going through.

Here is what we have done

1. Block and obvious drafts - Brining cold air directly in is always going to make it cold.
2. Thick curtains wherever possible and try and keep them closed. We even tuck them into the back of the rads to ensure the heat comes into the room
3. Given up on the vaulted rooms. We have a library with 4-5m high ceiling. I have given up on trying to keep that room warm. I personally don't think you can win them all.
4. Best thing we did was fit an Aga. This gives off heat the whole time and keeps the open plan kitchen warm.
5. Keep doors closed to stop warmth escaping onto corridors etc

We have the heating on for 3 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening.

FYI - Currently 16 deg in the kitchen. Not toasty warm but perfectly acceptable.

Hope this helps.

Ben

 

[worms]

all rads are the correct btu for each room...

Clearly they aren't! Correct btu for each room...in a modern, insulated building perhaps!

You could look up the companies that do the thermal survey work for sellers/purchasers surveys and they should be able to do the thermal imaging work that you want. If you can't find any other means of getting a list of potential companies, then a local estate agents might be able to help.

 

[truenorth]

Thanks again everyone...

The rad/boiler system does work, I understand what you're saying but I think it's a loss if heat as opposed to a lack of it. That was why I wondered if a heating expert nay be able to explain where it's escaping.

Insulation is a prob due to the design if the house, I did see this on the telegraph site...

http://www.yell.com/v/building+trades-insulating+your+home/expert-insulation-of-a-period-property-is-possible.html

Anyone tried this before?

Looks like there isn't one definitive source to go to for help, so I'll start working through each area and speak to the relevant people.

Thanks again. TN

 

[TomW]

if the heat us being lost through the walls or windows or roof etc.

Almost certainly all three. If you haven't got much internal insulation then you are basically trying to warm up a two foot thick wall, and that can take some doing, as others have said.
Can you get hold of the original conversion plans, they should show what was put in at the time.

As you say, you don't want to be ripping out your walls or roof to check, although to bring the barn to current legislation is bound to cause a lot of disruption and expense. Underfloor heating would also give a better heat distribution and "perception" of warmth, but at some cost.

 

[robgil]

when you design a central heating system you take into account lots of different variables, heat loss being a big part of it.
you have paid someone to do this for you and they clearly fluffed it. If it were me i would stop blaming the building and start blaming the people who didnt do the job they were paid to do.
Even an uninsulated house can be heated properly and remain comfortable , it just depends on the system fitted and the fuel bills you are prepared to pay.
heating large , open planned rooms/buildings efficiently is difficult, if efficiency has to be compromised so the customers dont sit in a cold room then it has to be compromised.
what kind of rads to you have? do you have enough in each room? How much time does your system spend calling for heat? is the boiler on constantly?
what would really hep would be if you gave us more details on your heating system, boiler type and power output , room size, rad size etc etc.
if you dont want to insulate the house you have to make the existing heating system work which if you ask me it should be doing anyway seeing as you have already paid for it.

put it this way , if you bought a brand new car, that from day one didnt start in the mornings you would leave it back to the garage you bought it from , yes?

 

[JohnB]

In a world with rising energy prices, doesn't it make sense to use old buildings in way they were used in the past? Keep one or two rooms well heated, and live in them during the winter. People who lived in large spaces with high ceilings in the past would have lived with the cold, but they didn't sit around in t-shirts watching TV! I think if I owned a house as described, I'd make sure several rooms were well insulated and easy to heat, and only use that part of it in winter. Without starting a discussion on climate change and peak oil, houses like this one will need to be remodelled to be habitable in future, unless the owners are extremely rich.

 

[JoceAndChris]

houses like this one will need to be remodelled to be habitable in future, unless the owners are extremely rich.

I'm sure it would be perfectly habitable without any heating at all. Perhaps people will need to change their expectations in the future? And just know that winter is a cold time when you wear 5 layers, as happened in days gone by. My parents grew up in largely unheated houses. Having said that, as fuel becomes more and more prohibitively expensive I wouldn't be surprised if the fashion for open plan living, exposed roof spaces, and glass conservatory type sitting spaces, falls away. What's warmest is a series of small, properly plastered rooms, with proper celings - and I swear a wallpapered room is intrinsically warmer than an exposed brick one.

I'm lovely and warm today though. Central heating on nearly all day, a fire in the drawing room and in the bedroom, the curtains closed, the Rayburn pumping out heat in the brekky room, a plug in column radiator in the hall and more electric fan heaters turned on just for those moments when I go in the kitchen or the bedroom. Soon I'll go back to freezing frugality as I know this is £££ but what a lovely day, in new fleece pyjamas (didn't bother to get dressed!)

I agree with John, though, that the OP needs a central point, like a wood burning stove, that's reliably warm.

 

[middi]

Everybody so far has mentioned what the problem may be and probably evrybody is correct in one way or another.

I personally would suspend a thermometer ( on a stick or something to satify myself what the temperature differential is between the upper third of the vaulted rooms and the lower third.
You will probably be amazed at the difference.
As Flyfisher suggested all the heat will head for the apex in the roof, if the insulation is as poorly as it may have been the trend in the 80's all the cold drafts entering the house at low level will not only keep the lower section of the barn cold but the apex will act as an updraft in a chimney where heat loss is speeded up.

Sometime the temp.differential will be as much as 7 to 10deg C., but due to the fast heat convection between high and low levels, coupled with heat loss, you may have to heat the apex to read 32-34deg C before you can get 16-18degC at lower levels.
A specialist heat engineer may advise in some form of heat recovery fans to alleviate the problem.
You have to look for a specialist in your aerea ( sorry I cannot help) to professionally assess the problems

Middi

 

[Penners]

I can't really add too much to the very good advice that you've had above, expect maybe to pull together various important points that I think I would tackle, in your situation.

* Vaulted rooms are always a b*gger to heat. To state the obvious, heat rises. So the higher the ceiling, the more heat will accumulate at the top.

* If you're satisfied that the building is reasonably draught-free and the windows are not large, then the most likely route for heat loss has to be the roof. It seems almost inevitable that you're going to have to do something to beef up your insulation.

* Massive stone walls can soak up a great deal of heat before they reach ambient temperature. The offset from this is that they then give back that heat as the temperature starts to fall. But you need to allow for the initial "soak-up" time. Maybe set your heating timer to come on a bit earlier (and off a bit earlier) than you actually require.

As regards detecting the heat loss from the house, the following might be worth a read. It's American, but heat loss is heat loss, the world over!

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/152008.html

 

[JohnB]

Discussion on thermal imaging cameras on Green Building Forum
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3290

 

[robgil]

perhaps something like warm air ducting might be a better system to use?

 

[Onetap]

all rads are the correct btu for each room...

Clearly they aren't! Correct btu for each room...in a modern, insulated building perhaps!

I was involved with a one room Victorian school-board building (solid walls, large area of single glazed wooden windows, raised concrete floor, very high pitched ceiling) at about the time your barn was being converted. If you did a standard heat-loss, u-value calculation, it indicated that the convector gas heaters installed were adequate. However, the users were cold. The CIBSE guide had also recently been revised and it gave another calculation method which I think took account of the ratios of radiant and convective heat emitted. I don't recall the details, but i think the new-fangled calculation method suggested they were 10 to 20% undersized.

With hindsight, I should have just had a big ,bottom-outlet convector heater installed and ideally insulated the underside of the floor. The occupants were cold and didn't need a bunch of calculations to tell them that. It didn't help that all the heat output was convective and tended to head for the ridge board, about 16 feet above the occupants.

The radiators may be corectly sized for the assumed u-values, but the U-values could only be established by ripping open a ceiling to verify that the 1988 standard minimum insulation had been installed. I don't think a thermal imaging camera would be of much help, other than showing the relative amounts of heat leaving through each element of the structure.

You really need a heating contractor with high-level technical qualifications. The standard of technical knowledge amongst UK heating technicians is fairly lamentable. You could try posting on the CIBSE forum, there are a lot of unemployed building services engineers at present, so there may be someone local who could provide expert help. CIBSe usually requires an honours degree & several years experience (typically in consultancy), but some engineers have little practical experience.