What to do with rotten beam ends

[Anonymous]

Having got around to removing most of the plaster from the kitchen, I'm slow......

I have found that some of the ends of the beams going in to the walls have rotted away. One in particular is bad, with only a small section left holding it in place at that end.

How should I tackle this?

Some of the other beams have had metal straps bolted to them and inserted into the wall to give them strength. This may be good and strong but to me is not aesthetically pleasing.

I need to remove more rotten wood from the ends of these beams, as it is very flaky, and I thought if a brick or two was removed then maybe it would be feasible to make an Oak piece to bolt to the end of the beam, to make it longer?
Perhaps I could remove some bricks from outside to make it easier to do? We have to remove some bricks etc for the replacement/installation of windows, so it wouldn't be too much extra hassle.

Should I just clean up and fill any gap with Lime mortar?

What's the commonly regarded best practice for this job?

What problems may I face? Supporting the wall whilst removing bricks I think will be the main one?

My Mike Wye Lime DVD arrived today, so that's another hour or so taken up learning how to plaster the kitchen, so there is no need to rush with your answers <IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/smile.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="">

If you want pictures, let me know and I'll take some.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

Graham - it's difficult to recommend a specific solution without being able to see the actual extent of the beam-end rot. If there's enough sound wood in the centre of the beam, you may find that the solution already adopted elsewhere is the best one: i.e. bolt a steel strap to the beam and pass it out through the wall to a plate on the other side. I know you said that you don't regard this as aesthetically satisfactory, but it is a practice widely used in many old properties for centuries. I actually don't mind the look of a bit of ironmongery, provided it hasn't been painted with bl**dy Hammerite!
The alternative is to cut back the end of the beam to sound wood, and then to lap or scarf on one or more new pieces of green oak (I presume the originals are oak?). As you said, you'll need to support the beam with an acrow prop (or similar) while you do this, and you may need to remove a few bricks during the fitting process, but this isn't a big deal. The method of attaching the new oak to the old will depend very much on the extent and shape of whatever replacement piece(s) might be needed. Needless to say you will have to ensure that the strength of the beam is maintained.
If you can post more information, and maybe some photos or drawings, it might be possible to give you some idea of the type of joint you need to use.

 

[Anonymous]

Beams are indeed Oak.
I will draw a little plan and also take a few pictures later when I have 5 mins.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, try to post a picture or two if you can.

Replacing sole plates and repairing bottoms of rotten studs has been my prefered "vocation" for a number of years, I could also help.
I also agree that on every application there is a different solution, the more authentic the repair the more labourious and fidly it becomes.
Well worth it in the end.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes - definitely worth it in the end.
We had the same problem in one of our attics, and a piece of new oak was spliced in (not sure of the technical term, but they cut a V out of the old wood and a matching inverted V out of the old, and held the two together with oak pegs). Costly, but aesthetically very pleasing.

 

[Anonymous]

Some pictures and more info.


Rotting beams

 

[Anonymous]

Nice floor beam pics.

Unable to download wall studs pics.

To ascertain exactly the extent of the damage on the floor beams where they are located within the wall, I would use acro props. One directly under the centre beam two foot away from the wall and another two acro props supporting the floor beams of the floor spanned by doubled up scaffold boards or something stronger if you have heavy loads above.

This will then allow you to examine the full extent of the beams ends by easily removing the bricks directly underneath the joists. and you can then decide exactly the necessary course of action to take depending upon the extent of the damage.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry forgot to upload them, they are now there.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

A few ideas for you.

1/ The obvious oak repair see the link below, this is a principle rafter but similar joints possible for your dilema.
2/ If its quite literally the section in the wall gone but no more I would suggest an internal flitch plate. i.e. a groove in the joist and rebate in the top, a T shaped 13mm piece of steel running back through the thickness of the beam bolted vertically and horizontally and a triangulated bearing foot within the wall. Far less invasive in terms of loss of origional fabric.
3/ Possibly you could in some instances instal a corbel, stone, brick or again oak to increase the bearing for the beam to sit on.

N.B. do not overlook why the beams rotted, i.e. the source of the damp.



Principle rafter repair

 

[Anonymous]

I would recommend that you employed someone like Middi or Barry who has done all my carpentry repair joints. There are carpenters and carpenters and I know those two have the relavent experience.

 

[Anonymous]

A classic case of timbers trapped in brickwork and unsuitable renders used.
Normally,as history confirms, sandwiched beams in the correct bricks and lime mortars is not a problem, especially if the timbers are in some way exposed.
The problem started with the arrival of cement, the ideal solution for the lazy so & so's, that it was used very freely for a quick and very solid solution.
As you know it has done irreversible damage to a lot of timber buildings.
As to your stud in the picture, this appears to have changed its role from carrier to passenger, whilst this is part of the historical fabric is just there taking up space.
If you want to repair it you need to find out how far up to go, it will involve a carefull approach in removal of some brick work in order to gain access to cut the stud. The simplest way is to inert a new piece of oak, half lapped (side on) with the top and bottom lapped halves with a slight " V " intersection and a couple of pegs.
Make sure the bottom end is free draining by making good using lime mortar

I hope this helps.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks all.
I have a great carpenter and joiner in my father in law, is 65 next month and been working since he was 14. His woodwork is really great. He has worked on several listed barn conversions and has given me ideas on how we should do the work.
Basing it on, how much it would cost and how much work is involved etc for the different ways.

My opinion is do it well now so it lasts another goodness how long.

What I wanted was general feeling for the different methods as to which was right, and it appears either metalwork or woodwork is right, done right and each is probably better for different situations.

I won't be so bothered now if we decide to go either way once we have finished digging things out and investigated further or even use a mixture.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, iron-dog type flitch plates and corbels.

That upright timber puzzles me though!

What do you suppose its purpose is?

Old studwork perhaps or maybe a filled in doorway?

Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

The wall to the left of it is the outside wall, south.
The wall to the right of it was the old outside wall, west, a utility was built in the early seventies.
The House is very old, adn we are led to believe was timber framed, so I can only assume it was the old corner of the house and a structural Upright.
I can't see what is above it in the bedroom as a shower has been put in.
On the far end of the west wall the upright does go up through the bedroom and several of the upstairs uprights go down into the kitchen.
One was unfortunately chopped off to make the doorway into the utility.
I've added a few pictures of the N/W corner and the bedroom to give you more of an idea. Up at about 11.30am.
Sorry about the state of the bedroom, my sis in law is moving house, sold hers and her new (old) one isn't ready yet, so we have rooms full of stuff.

As my Father in law isn't here, what's a corbal?

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

Here's the link again.


http://www.myvideoproblems.com/testfiles/personal/kitchen/rotting%20beams.htm

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Graham, I will have to catch up with this later . . (lunching out!).

A corbel is a stone bracket which not only looks good as a feature, if done properly it is an extremely strong support.

Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

Graham, as a matter of interest, is the upper level of the house also brick infill same as as the ground level ?.

There is still some nice timbers about, considering the " upgrading" done over the decades.

Obviousely, originally was a timber frame with wattle and daub infill panel.
Short of having a mental breakdown and apply to reinstate it to it's original condition, repair and stabilise all good timbers left, remove to sound wood any rotted timber and unless it is going to be exposed and not trapped in brickwok I am not sure I woul bother to replace it.
My attitude would be save to and bring to the fore all that is good of the original timber frame.

What you have there is an opportunety to test your love for old buildings, the more determined you are the better the restoration will be.

 

[Anonymous]

So, I am right in thinking, leaving as much as I can of the original is best practice, which will mean a lot of fiddly work to get behind it. So we can insert some new Oak behind to strengthen and also insert new pieces in the parts that have rotted away?
Rather than strip out the whole of the bottom piece from the kitchen and replace it with a new piece of Oak?

 

[Anonymous]

How to repair an oak frame beam depends very much on what stresses is being sujected to in a particular part of the building.

Wilst it is good restoration practice to replace just the decayed parts of a beam, in reality if incorrectly done, it will weaken it further.

Evaluation of any timbers in need of repairs, with the emphasis on conserving as much of the original as possible, is of the outmost importance and this will determine if the aid of steel is required.

How much of the "bad" timber you remove and repair is down to the "carpenter" after close inspection of the timber.
A carpenter, for example, would spend hours (if not days) to carry out the perfect repair, another carpenter would find a quicker way around the problem, especially if the repair is hidden from view.
At the end is all down to iterpretation of the problem, Personal preferences and how deep is your pocket, bearing in mind that you have taken on an obligation if you want to conserve the building.

Is down to you and the carpenter to make decisions. Your approach seems good, I am sure you will get it right.