What happens to listed status if part of building is sold?

[inwood]

I was thinking the other day when driving by a fairly substantial building which has lots of outbuildings, what happens to the listed status of a building if part of it is sold off?

I know the listed status applies to the 'curtilage' of a property but if for example a barn (which is within the curtilage) is sold does this then become a separately listed building or is the listed status for the part that is sold then delisted?

Any ideas?

 

[Nemesis]

Status doesn't alter. If it is curtilage listed it remains curtilage listed.

 

[Flyfisher]

But doesn't 'curtilage' refer to the land/out-buildings that are part of the main property. If sold off they are surely no longer within the curtilage of the main property?

 

[Nemesis]

Are the buildings going awol then?

If they were curtilage before they remain curtilage. It's not about current ownership, it's about history and past usage.

http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/sebc/live/Listed-Buildings.cfm


What does listing cover?
Regardless of the grade of listing, the degree of protection is the same for every listed building. The whole building, including every elevation and the interior, is protected.

In addition, any building or structure which belonged with the main building when it was listed, and which was built before 1 July 1948, is also included in the designation. Structures which fall into this category are known as ‘curtilage listed’ and can include outbuildings and boundary structures.

Sometimes curtilage listed buildings are sold to a different owner after the main building is listed. Even though their use and ownership has changed since the main building was listed, they will still remain as curtilage listed because of their historic connection with the main building.

Structures put up after 1 July 1948, such as a new garage, are not included in the listing.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well, I know of one GII* house that once had a whole bunch of outbuildings built well before 1948 that were sold off about 5 years ago for the building land and subsequently demolished. Presumably they were de-listed before the new owner knocked them down and the council granted permission for the new houses that were subsequently built.

 

[Nemesis]

Dunno. Perhaps it was a crap council. Possibly the buildings weren't considered curtilage - several court cases have muddied the waters somewhat.

 

[Flyfisher]

Dunno. . . . Possibly the buildings weren't considered curtilage . . . .

Precisely my point. I don't think it's as clear cut as your previous post suggested.

 

[Nemesis]

Nothing ever is, though, where planning issues are concerned.

However, if a building is curtilage listed, selling it doesn't alter its status. That's what the original post asked. What makes a building curtilage listed has been the subject of a few legal cases. Ultimately, that is for the courts to decide.

It is up to the planning authority (and EH where I and II* buildings are concerned) to decide the fate of listed buildings, taking into account national policy. At times it is up to the Secretary of State.

 

[Nemesis]

This explains a little more:

http://www.surreyheath.gov.uk/faqs/faq.htm?mode=20&pk_faq=139


as does this:

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/CB48_42_Legal.pdf

 

[inwood]

Thanks for the replies, although it all sounds a bit woolly to me - much like many legal terms relating to property which probably originated with our early legal systems.

Another reason for asking is that we have a barn (built long before 1948) which is attached to our house (to which we currently have no external access). It was owned by the garage next door and sold to the previous owner for conversion. This sale occurred about 20 years after the house was listed. The previous owner did nothing with it and we're trying to determine how to approach a sensitive conversion.

Since the barn wasn't part of the original listing of the house does that mean the barn isn't listed?, or as it is now part of the new boundary of the property is it now within the properties curtilage and therefore listed?

Clearly it affects the way in which would approach any conversion and whether listed building consent would be required. I suspect the only way to determine this for sure would be to involve a solicitor.

Oh and another reason for asking is that the property that I'm restoring (different to our own house) had some stables which were knocked down by the previous owner - on an area which is now outside the new boundary of the property. Incidentally this was apparently done in the presence of a council official! - one of the crap councils that Nemesis is referring to I think....

 

[Nemesis]

Sorry - think we both posted at the same time - have a read of the links...

I have to say that at times there are reasons why outbuildings which legally are curtilage are given permission for demolition, but permission should always be sought.

Re the barn - if it was deemed to be part of the curtilage (read above...) before July 1948, it is still deemed curtilage listed if the tests for curtilage apply, no amtter that it changed ownership several times.

Yes it's complicated!

 

[inwood]

Thanks Nemesis I just had a quick read. It would appear the barn (which although joined to our house) is a separate entity.

The document states:" Where a self-contained building is fenced or walled off at the date of listing it is likely to be regarded as being part of a separate curtilage regardless of any historical relationship."

The barn is effectively walled off since there is no access to it from our house. So assuming it's not part of the curtilage of another building I believe it wouldn't be listed.

 

[Nemesis]

I would put your thoughts to the Conservation Officer before making any assumptions, and ask if the local authority consider it listed.

 

[inwood]

Rest assured they will be my first port of call. My local CO has been a great help already.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

This causes massive problems, especially when you come to sell. The main issue is that, when a curtilage-listed building is sold away from the principal listed building, the law is very clear that it remains listing, BUT as there isn't a list entry for the curtilage building, subsequent land charges searches don't show it as listed.

I've lost count of the number of curtilage-listed barns granted LBC for conversion in the 1980s, then sold away from the (principal listed building) farmhouse and completely wrecked because nobody can provide any evidence that the curtilage listed barn is listed.

So you decide to sell your (you think) unlisted barn and the search shows up a Listed Building Consent in its past history, and the solicitors get in touch with the planning department, and I advise them that the barn is still listed, but none of the works done since 1985 have consent, and the solicitors report back to the prospective purchasers, and the sale falls through, and I've added another grain of sand to the desert of misery that is the property market (mission accomplished :twisted: )

 

[Moo]

and I've added another grain of sand to the desert of misery that is the property market

Gareth - that's brilliant !!

xx M