Does anyone have any experience/knowledge of the effectiveness of these magnetic water softening systems, as compared to the ones that you fill with salt?
http://www.waterimp.co.uk/
http://www.waterimp.co.uk/
- Thread starter Moo
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biffvernon
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Pseudoscience.
It probably cures rising damp too.
It probably cures rising damp too.
That's my feeling too, Biff. If they were as good as they claim, why are people still buying the resin-based ones?
However, a friend has recommended a make called Water-King that, according to it's website,
"... is a non-intrusive water conditioner that inhibits scale formation, removes existing scale deposits and partially softens hot water. It requires no plumbing and there is no need for ongoing maintenance nor servicing."
and - "Water-King is the only electronic device of its kind that has been proven by independent laboratory tests to produce softer water."
However, a friend has recommended a make called Water-King that, according to it's website,
"... is a non-intrusive water conditioner that inhibits scale formation, removes existing scale deposits and partially softens hot water. It requires no plumbing and there is no need for ongoing maintenance nor servicing."
and - "Water-King is the only electronic device of its kind that has been proven by independent laboratory tests to produce softer water."
They omitted the fact that it can tell jokes, Moo
These water softeners, be it ultra sound, reverse osmosis or the substitution of chlorine for sodium( salt based), all carry baggage in the form of cost of installation or maintenance, flow rate, water quality or total waste or money for small kits.
Talking about baggage, it reminds me of this chap that asked this other fellow , which was carrying two very heavy suitcases, what the time was.
The first chap could not fail to notice the very compact wristwach which incorporate television, Gps, radio, video games etc..,etc..and asked how much it costed, the reply was:- " only £25.00 pound", "Give over", he replied, " there must be a catch to it".
"there is" the scond fellow said, " is the b****y batteries in the suitcases"
These water softeners, be it ultra sound, reverse osmosis or the substitution of chlorine for sodium( salt based), all carry baggage in the form of cost of installation or maintenance, flow rate, water quality or total waste or money for small kits.
Talking about baggage, it reminds me of this chap that asked this other fellow , which was carrying two very heavy suitcases, what the time was.
The first chap could not fail to notice the very compact wristwach which incorporate television, Gps, radio, video games etc..,etc..and asked how much it costed, the reply was:- " only £25.00 pound", "Give over", he replied, " there must be a catch to it".
"there is" the scond fellow said, " is the b****y batteries in the suitcases"
I like the watch story, Middi. I've copied it into my file of 'funnies to be shared'.
re the water softeners - we're in a very hard water area and had one of the standard replenish-the-salt machines installed, but it's ten years old now and not quite as effective as it used to be The firm that came and serviced it have been doing a rather hard sell to persuade us to replace it at a cost of over £500. My husband (rather gullible sometimes) is getting rather keen on the clip-on-a-pipe sort, but I have great misgivings and am trying to find some authoritative information about them.
re the water softeners - we're in a very hard water area and had one of the standard replenish-the-salt machines installed, but it's ten years old now and not quite as effective as it used to be The firm that came and serviced it have been doing a rather hard sell to persuade us to replace it at a cost of over £500. My husband (rather gullible sometimes) is getting rather keen on the clip-on-a-pipe sort, but I have great misgivings and am trying to find some authoritative information about them.
biffvernon
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Do a bit of googling and you will find lots of companies selling magnetic and electronic water softeners with claims that clearly show their copywriters do not have O' level chemistry but can smell a rich sucker from afar.
There are a very few scientific papers that suggest, rather inconclusively, that very strong magnetic fields alter the precipitation characteristics of calcite and its crystallographic alter-ego aragonite but I've found nothing that persuades me that the commercial devices should work in the way that is claimed. There are also some bulletin boards where the question has arisen but the conclusion is don't waste your money.
There are a very few scientific papers that suggest, rather inconclusively, that very strong magnetic fields alter the precipitation characteristics of calcite and its crystallographic alter-ego aragonite but I've found nothing that persuades me that the commercial devices should work in the way that is claimed. There are also some bulletin boards where the question has arisen but the conclusion is don't waste your money.
Penners
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Magnetic water softeners are brilliant at removing all the ferrous things from water. So if your water supply happens to be polluted with pig iron, or steel bolts, they will be effectively trapped.
Well worth the money, eh?
Well worth the money, eh?
Aidan
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The hardness is caused by dissolved calcium and magnesium compounds, mostly calcium bicarbonate. The only way to soften water is to remove the calcium & magnesium ions. A salt-type base exchange softener is about the only way of doing this in a house.
You can measure the effectiveness of a softener with a test kit; around here mains water goes in at about 340 ppm hardness and it should come out at 0 ppm. A few drops of detergent and a bottle will indicate water hardness.
The electronic conditioners are claimed , by the manufacturers, to have some effect on the deposition of limescale; they don't remove any of the calcium or magnesium ions and don't soften water. Water goes in at 340 ppm and comes out at 340 ppm.
There was an electronic water conditioner ( I think it was a Water King device) fitted to a water main that supplied a batch of humidifiers that I was involved with. It was reported that it extended the service life of the humidifiers' electrode boilers, in that more of the limescale was flushed down the drains rather than scaling up the boilers. The water boilers would usually need servicing (i.e., descaling & new electrodes) every month or so. I once had to go into the darkest corner of that plantroom, where the services came in, for something. I found that the electronic water conditioner had been nicked; strangely, no-one had noticed the effects of it's absence. It wasn't replaced.
You can measure the effectiveness of a softener with a test kit; around here mains water goes in at about 340 ppm hardness and it should come out at 0 ppm. A few drops of detergent and a bottle will indicate water hardness.
The electronic conditioners are claimed , by the manufacturers, to have some effect on the deposition of limescale; they don't remove any of the calcium or magnesium ions and don't soften water. Water goes in at 340 ppm and comes out at 340 ppm.
There was an electronic water conditioner ( I think it was a Water King device) fitted to a water main that supplied a batch of humidifiers that I was involved with. It was reported that it extended the service life of the humidifiers' electrode boilers, in that more of the limescale was flushed down the drains rather than scaling up the boilers. The water boilers would usually need servicing (i.e., descaling & new electrodes) every month or so. I once had to go into the darkest corner of that plantroom, where the services came in, for something. I found that the electronic water conditioner had been nicked; strangely, no-one had noticed the effects of it's absence. It wasn't replaced.
Penners
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Aidan - do you know whether it's true that salt-type water softeners increase your risk of heart problems because they increase your sodium intake?
Aidan
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Penners said:
I think so, but I'm not good on the chemistry. I think the sodium could increase blood pressure, whereas the calcium, in unsoftened water, is not harmful. Softened water contains sodium carbonate I think, (I think it's aka washing soda). Others, who seem to know much more about the chemistry than I do, have said that the amount of sodium involved is less than the amount contained in the salt in 1 slice of bread, so the increased risk is negligible.
It's usually recommended that you have an unsoftened supply to the kitchen tap.
In the days when salting was a common method of preserving food, apoplexy/strokes, due to high blood pressure, was a common cause of death. The average salt intake must have been huge, by today's standards.
Naturally soft water contains little dissolved calcium and it is not the same as artificially softened water.
Geoff Flegg
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Moo - £500 sounds a bit much. I fitted a £300 one in my last house from B&Q (dirty word, I know........) and it worked fine. They all plumb in by much the same method, the difficult bit already having been done if you've already got a machine.
For everyone else reading this thread - the salt type ion exchange softeners really do work well. Before we fitted it our loo used to get limescale on it, sinks always looked manky, and our baby daughter used to suffer with patches of dry skin. Fitted the softener and it cured all this - we stopped using fabric softener in the washing machine as well, you just didn't need it. We really noticed how much softer our skin was too, and how much easier soap / shampoo lathered.
You do definitely need to keep an un-softened drinking tap though. The health effects of softened water aren't proved, but I can tell you that it tastes brackish - not nice. We just had the normal kitchen sink cold tap still connected straight to the rising main. We also fitted a new outside tap that was on the "hard" supply - very wasteful if you water the garden / wash the car with softened water, as well as the effect on your plants!
For everyone else reading this thread - the salt type ion exchange softeners really do work well. Before we fitted it our loo used to get limescale on it, sinks always looked manky, and our baby daughter used to suffer with patches of dry skin. Fitted the softener and it cured all this - we stopped using fabric softener in the washing machine as well, you just didn't need it. We really noticed how much softer our skin was too, and how much easier soap / shampoo lathered.
You do definitely need to keep an un-softened drinking tap though. The health effects of softened water aren't proved, but I can tell you that it tastes brackish - not nice. We just had the normal kitchen sink cold tap still connected straight to the rising main. We also fitted a new outside tap that was on the "hard" supply - very wasteful if you water the garden / wash the car with softened water, as well as the effect on your plants!
Penners
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Geoff Flegg said:
You have a house from B&Q? I knew their range of stuff was pretty extensive, but.... :shock:
MANY, MANY THANKS TO ALL
My other half has abandoned the idea of a clip-on device and got a lot of information about our current machine from the firm that bought out the manufacturers. The upshot is that the hard-sell firm have climbed down and are coming around to replenish the resin, which will cost around £60.
So we're a pair of happy Norfolk bunnies, thanks toPPUK
My other half has abandoned the idea of a clip-on device and got a lot of information about our current machine from the firm that bought out the manufacturers. The upshot is that the hard-sell firm have climbed down and are coming around to replenish the resin, which will cost around £60.
So we're a pair of happy Norfolk bunnies, thanks toPPUK
Penners
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Putting one over on pushy salesmen is one of the world's most satisfying sports, don't you think?
Geoff Flegg
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Penners said:
You're not too far away from the truth - I worked for them at the time, not in a store, but the staff discount and the odd sample product I could scrounge meant that by the time I'd finished doing the place up it almost was a B&Q house!