Water Ingress

[JollySteven]

This weekend we had a damp patch around the downstairs lounge window and on the top sill . Water then dripped out when I punctured one patch . The windows looked sealed on the outside . Struggling to see where water is getting in . We did have the gutters cleaned . We were told there is joint that needs sealing . But could this be the cause . I cannot see how water would get into the house near the joint & then reach downstairs. I am puzzled & would welcome any advice.

 

[Cubist]

Hi There,

When you say top sill do you mean the top-most header rail of the window frame or do you mean the cill at the bottom of the frame?

Assuming your house is brick built the cause would be a leak in the caulking material used to achieve a weather tight seal between the frame and the brickwork. Driven rain or persistent heavy leaks from a gutter above can be forced inside the house by strong winds. This water can track around the frame to appear some distance from the original point of entry and soak into any absorbent materials such as plasterboard and plaster in its path before emerging indoors.

You will need to carefully examine the caulking all the way around the window frame to find any damaged sections to apply a temporary repair using Plumbers Mate Putty from somewhere like Screwfix - a very small amount will do the job when pressed into any gaps or holes. For the long term though you will need to remove all the existing caulking material and replace it with a suitable material.

 

[JollySteven]

Thank for the reply. The area I am referring to is at the top above the window seat The house is built of stone . We cannot see any gaps in the current silicone around the window on the outside. The leak seemed start appearing in the corner and gradually extend over the day. One irony perhaps unrelated perhaps not . We had our gutters cleaned last week.

 

[Cubist]

Were the windows installed recently? Or, does the header of the window project beyond the line of the wall above?

Even of this were from a heavy leak of water from the gutter it can only penetrate to the interior in those quantities via either the caulking around the frame, a break of damage to the walls mortar joints or perhaps a failed rubber gasket between the elements of the window frame itself. The caulking remains the most likely candidate to my mind. Sorry but your best option is still to get some Plumbers Mate and get out there.

 

[stuart45]

Can you put some external photos on?

 

[JollySteven]

Thank you again. The windows were installed about 3 years ago. They are covered by the installers insurance. However, you have been very helpful.

Can you put some external photos on?

will do tomorrow .

 

[JollySteven]

External photos .

 

[Oldschool]

Mullions......I don't know how to solve this but you have my utmost heartfelt sympathy! We had our windows installed with burnt sand mastic no idea if that would help retrospectively but its the more traditional approach. Best of luck getting this solved.

 

[Cubist]

In that first picture theres a column dividing the two sections. Was this installed at the same time as the new window frame and of what material is it made? This, I think, is a worrying feature.

I can see no obvious caulking in the gap between the UPVC frame and the stonework but there is what may be an edge of a rubber compression gasket. Regardless this interface is the most likely avenue of water ingress. Ordinarily I would recommend using Caulking Cotton to form a bed inside the gap and this then topped with a burnt sand mastic - as suggested by Oldschool - to make this joint entirely weathertight. However, I am not convinced that the burnt sand mastic would not be pushed out over time by any differential movement.

Ideally that gap, all around the perimeter of the frame, must be filled with a caulking material that does not permanently set and is capable of absorbing some slight difference in the expansion and contraction movement of the UPVC frame and the stone. Do not be tempted to use a silicone caulking as these often fail the test of time. In your position I would use Plumbers Putty which never sets and firmly push this into the gap to form a continuous seal around and between the UPVC and stonework. DO NOT be tempted to use Glaziers Putty, this sets completely within a few weeks and can then crack and break up.

Plumbers Putty is messy to use and not easily handled. You will need a suitable narrow (25mm) bladed spatula to neatly apply it in this situation.

I am assuming the outer groove/channel in the stonework is purely decorative and does not penetrate completely through the stone.

 

[JollySteven]

Mullions......I don't know how to solve this but you have my utmost heartfelt sympathy! We had our windows installed with burnt sand mastic no idea if that would help retrospectively but its the more traditional approach. Best of luck getting this solved.

Thank you. It’s a mystery to us. 2 years in the house and it’s never happened before. We have had heavy driving rain previously and snow . All around the windows is brown silicone. I can see no way for water to ingress. Even when I go above the window higher up there are no cracks in the mortar etc .

 

[Flyfisher]

Thank for the reply. The area I am referring to is at the top above the window seat The house is built of stone . We cannot see any gaps in the current silicone around the window on the outside. The leak seemed start appearing in the corner and gradually extend over the day. One irony perhaps unrelated perhaps not . We had our gutters cleaned last week.

Were the gutters cleaner with a pressure washer perchance? Could the operator have also have had a go at the windows as well? Just thinking out loud about why you've not had previous problems like this, even with driving rain.

 

[Cubist]

The reason I asked about that central divide is that I can see a channel in the stone work directly above it and there is another to the left in the stone lintel above that mullion. Driven rain water will track through these channels and be directed to the top of that divider. Its possible that there is a route to thee interior behind that divider where the installer could not properly caulk the frame and/or the joints around the edges of the divider itself.

This though could be another red-herring insofar that the initial weakness could be a some distance away from the frame and rainwater is tracking through the fissures in the stoneworks mortar to arrive in that corner. If you cannot find a point of entry directly around the window frame you will have to widen your search.

 

[JollySteven]

Were the gutters cleaner with a pressure washer perchance? Could the operator have also have had a go at the windows as well? Just thinking out loud about why you've not had previous problems like this, even with driving rain.

No . The workman did it manually .

 

[JollySteven]

In that first picture theres a column dividing the two sections. Was this installed at the same time as the new window frame and of what material is it made? This, I think, is a worrying feature.

I can see no obvious caulking in the gap between the UPVC frame and the stonework but there is what may be an edge of a rubber compression gasket. Regardless this interface is the most likely avenue of water ingress. Ordinarily I would recommend using Caulking Cotton to form a bed inside the gap and this then topped with a burnt sand mastic - as suggested by Oldschool - to make this joint entirely weathertight. However, I am not convinced that the burnt sand mastic would not be pushed out over time by any differential movement.

Ideally that gap, all around the perimeter of the frame, must be filled with a caulking material that does not permanently set and is capable of absorbing some slight difference in the expansion and contraction movement of the UPVC frame and the stone. Do not be tempted to use a silicone caulking as these often fail the test of time. In your position I would use Plumbers Putty which never sets and firmly push this into the gap to form a continuous seal around and between the UPVC and stonework. DO NOT be tempted to use Glaziers Putty, this sets completely within a few weeks and can then crack and break up.

Plumbers Putty is messy to use and not easily handled. You will need a suitable narrow (25mm) bladed spatula to neatly apply it in this situation.

I am assuming the outer groove/channel in the stonework is purely decorative and does not penetrate completely through the stone.

The previous owners removed the upvc windows, reinstalled a mullion and replaced the upc windows with accoya timber windows. . What I assume is brown silicone plugs the gaps between the stone and window.

 

[JollySteven]

The reason I asked about that central divide is that I can see a channel in the stone work directly above it and there is another to the left in the stone lintel above that mullion. Driven rain water will track through these channels and be directed to the top of that divider. Its possible that there is a route to thee interior behind that divider where the installer could not properly caulk the frame and/or the joints around the edges of the divider itself.

This though could be another red-herring insofar that the initial weakness could be a some distance away from the frame and rainwater is tracking through the fissures in the stoneworks mortar to arrive in that corner. If you cannot find a point of entry directly around the window frame you will have to widen your search.

The reason I asked about that central divide is that I can see a channel in the stone work directly above it and there is another to the left in the stone lintel above that mullion. Driven rain water will track through these channels and be directed to the top of that divider. Its possible that there is a route to thee interior behind that divider where the installer could not properly caulk the frame and/or the joints around the edges of the divider itself.

This though could be another red-herring insofar that the initial weakness could be a some distance away from the frame and rainwater is tracking through the fissures in the stoneworks mortar to arrive in that corner. If you cannot find a point of entry directly around the window frame you will have to widen your search.

Thank you . Your thoughts are very helpful. I did wonder whether driving rain could enter some distance away say higher up and travel downwards through the rubble behind the exterior wall. I also wondered whether a weeping tray should have been installed when the undoes were fitted .

 

[Stevers]

Nice windows! I was immediately struck by the slenderness and neatness of the frames and sashes compared with UPVC.

That water might well have started entering via the degraded looking stonework above the middle of the window. Given that it's just started happening I think it's less likely to be the windows especially as it's along the whole length, and water entering higher up is more likely to cause that.

The staining of the stonework looks more typical of a sandstone, as in I can't see anywhere where it's washed clean as a limestone would. Sandstones come in several varieties with different binders, some sandstones being better for building than others. That sandstone in general looks quite weathered and the strap pointing although 'traditional' isn't ideal as water can lodge on the ledges of the straps, especially if the pointing is cement as I suspect. If the stone is quite soft then any mortar repairs need to be even weaker, but that should be achievable with an NHL or lime mix.

The Mendips is limestone country, with only a cap of super hard sandstone, so no personal experience of any stone like that, but I'd definitely have a gentle poke around in the stonework above the window, fill any cracks or voids found with a nice soft mortar and see what effect that has.

 

[JollySteven]

Nice windows! I was immediately struck by the slenderness and neatness of the frames and sashes compared with UPVC.

That water might well have started entering via the degraded looking stonework above the middle of the window. Given that it's just started happening I think it's less likely to be the windows especially as it's along the whole length, and water entering higher up is more likely to cause that.

The staining of the stonework looks more typical of a sandstone, as in I can't see anywhere where it's washed clean as a limestone would. Sandstones come in several varieties with different binders, some sandstones being better for building than others. That sandstone in general looks quite weathered and the strap pointing although 'traditional' isn't ideal as water can lodge on the ledges of the straps, especially if the pointing is cement as I suspect. If the stone is quite soft then any mortar repairs need to be even weaker, but that should be achievable with an NHL or lime mix.

The Mendips is limestone country, with only a cap of super hard sandstone, so no personal experience of any stone like that, but I'd definitely have a gentle poke around in the stonework above the window, fill any cracks or voids found with a nice soft mortar and see what effect that has.

Thank you . Yes the stone is weathered . The house was built in 1703. My understanding is the mortar is line mortar but the conservation officer has since confirmed we do not have to use lime the reason escapes me at the moment.

 

[Stevers]

we do not have to use lime

This will be due to the type of sandstone, so yours might not be calcite bound then. The mix still needs to be weak, 1:5 cement:sand mixes are out there and whilst it sets OK, whether it would be weak enough not to damage your stonework is something I wouldn't know. Here I use NHL for (almost) everything!

 

[Mikeyboy7]

Were the windows installed recently? Or, does the header of the window project beyond the line of the wall above?

Even of this were from a heavy leak of water from the gutter it can only penetrate to the interior in those quantities via either the caulking around the frame, a break of damage to the walls mortar joints or perhaps a failed rubber gasket between the elements of the window frame itself. The caulking remains the most likely candidate to my mind. Sorry but your best option is still to get some Plumbers Mate and get out there.

Hi cubist, just to be clear, would you use
Plumbers mate over silicone if the windows are Upvc ?

 

[JollySteven]

Hi cubist, just to be clear, would you use
Plumbers mate over silicone if the windows are Upvc ?

The windows are accoya wood not uvpc.