Very old stone house on my Dad's farm, N Wales

[AeronP]

My father has an old house on his farm which I am thinking of renovating and living in. Am I mad? I just can't get this madness out of my mind. Have tried to attach photos but as a newbee I think I'm not allowed.
This house was abandoned in 1963 in favour of a newly built house on the yard. It was then used to house calves and animal feed. Galvanised sheep pens have been erected to the rear (north facing garden). There is also an added on stable built in 1912, so this would be part of the house.
It is all built in slate stone, lime rendered/pointed and then lime washed. (walls not limed for 20yrs approx, but still standing).
Have consulted an ex colleague who works for council overseeing grant renovation projects and is an architect. He thinks its great. He's measured the house and stable ready for drawings. He's so busy, no contact there for 6months approx, I don't think my finances ready anyway.
My architect suggested getting the building looking original with all the old techniques, even re building the old chimney stack that's been removed, original wooden sash windows etc.
I agree with some of what he has said, however after reading and researching this house needs to keep my family warm by moving into the 21st century. (sorry if your bored)
Here goes, I'm thinking.
Straw bale extension for rear/north extension housing large kitchen and 1st floor bedroom (T shaped from joining of old house and stable).
French drains all round, lime crete floors with underfloor heating, lime and hemp internal wall insulation, internal limewash paint.
External walls, breathable insulating woodboard, finished with a lime render.
Double or triple glazing wooden windows(sash too expensive).
New roof, warm roof system with solar panels on south side(no chimney stacks, just a pipe, expense).
Can't decide on heating system. Wood/Log burner with B boiler? Air source h. pump? Ground source h. pump? Pellet boiler? It's so confusing, help.........
Yes, I lose outside character but I'm hoping the external insulation will keep the heat in the walls, and the lime hemp render on the internal walls will allow slow seepage of heat into the walls from inside (I think lime hemp has character/texture). This will allow breathing walls, warm winters and cool summers.
Any other ideas like, don't even bother, go and build a new house or buy one? Just can't get rid of the passion, been on my mind for years.
Building from new won't create the same character, will use up more land while this old building is no longer being used and will eventually fall down.
Wish I had photos, might let me attach some if they know I'm only half mad. Walls 500-600mm thick. Width 6m/yards Length 20m/yards Any ideas/comments/suggestions please? Celling heights low 7ft approx
Many Thanks

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

You can add photos via Photobucket. Copy/paste the IMG code.

What attracts you to the house....??... character... the programme you are describing would erase that character as if it had never been. Everything flat, straight, modern windows, solar panels....

In the past, the main enemy of old houses seems to have been cement. Now, it's an obsession with insulation.

We left a 1920s house, central heating, 30,000 hours of my work, to live in our cottage. No underfloor heating, not much insulation, damp, draughty, if we want to keep warm to put on extra layers, yesterday my wife was wearing her fleece... and we have to set aside £2,000 per annum to replace the roof.
It is what it is. Plenty character.

Old house aren't for everyone. Some people like the dream of an old house, but not the reality. It's good that you recognise this.
If you love the house, might be kinder to sell it someone who doesn't want to live in the 21st century.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Hello

I'm glad you are thinking about renovating a derelict old house, but to be honest I generally agree with Ivor. The works you describe I believe would be an expensive way of creating a new house, as with external insulation, no sash windows and solar panels it really wouldn't look like a historic property at all.

A few specifics. I wouldn't think that internal and external insulation is necessary: either one or the other is sufficient. Even the so called "zero carbon house" near me, a converted mid 19th century terrace only has internal insulation. Also I think that lime/hemp needs to be really thick, to make a difference. If the inside is beyond saving, then perhaps modern internal insulation which takes up less space for the same insulation value would be better.

Under floor heating is good when a place needs to be kept warm constantly, but the mass of floor makes for a lot of lag in the system, so the house will take hours to respond to heating needs if you are going to live like most families and turn the heating off when you're out. If you are happy to dig out enough for limecrete then why not think about insulated suspended timber floors, that would be cheaper and easier.

Considering the extensive plans you have, the extra that sash windows would cost is minimal in comparison to the overall cost, it would be criminal to miss that opportunity just to save a few pounds. A link was put up by another forum contributor to a firm that makes sash windows that are quite affordable, it might be worth a look.

http://www.byngjoinery.co.uk/content/29-timber-sash-window-prices

Try the photos again, a picture speaks a thousand words etc.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think some photos would help us with the original building and the scale of the proposed extension but my feeling is that this sounds more like an 'eco' project than a more typical period restoration project. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I wonder if it might be an option to build a completely new eco house rather than incorporate an existing run-down property?

 

[Roger H]

Hi Aeron.

Before immediately going down the external render route, what is the local historic precedent? Maybe render would have been on the building originally and if so then could work well. I think windows are critical in the appearance of a building and the correct choice here could be the hinge on which a sympathetic restoration or a insensitive modernisation swings.

Personally, I think underfloor heating is a great idea - subject to Plasticpigeon’s caveats. A well insulated roof, airtight doors and windows, insulated groundslab and thick walls may go a long way to achieving a liveable home without necessarily sacrificing the historic integrity of the building.

 

[AeronP]

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Hello all,
Thanks for your much appreciated comments. Still struggling with the photos.

Yes, it might be more like an eco project but I do look at the way this building was built and I think its amazing and has generally stood the test of time. Most walls are sound, one or 2 wobbles which need sorting. If we do go ahead with this, I would like to keep all of the walls as they are if possible, the only open plan would be the new kitchen extension. I will consider sash if the price is right.

I agree with most of what your saying, the house I live in now is also stone. Unfortunately it has been rendered in cement inside and out and I insulated the loft when we moved in which has warmed it up but caused black mould. This house is freezing, heating costs are £1200 per year just for oil (Rayburn and only lasts 7 months) + tones of logs. Even though this house has pebbledash render, its shape is still the same. If it was painted white it would probably look stunningly beautiful.
I think the same would be the case with the renovation. My wife and I agree it should be made super warm without compromising wall breathability. It will be sad to lose the stony wall character of the outside but worse to renovate with poor insulation and burn more fuel to keep warm (co2 emissions etc.). Lime render would be applied to the boards which might meet this halfway and if you can see photos, might not be too far off original house.
Solar panels are sometimes ugly and I have looked at slate type solar panels. Has anyone experienced these?
Ivor, your house is stunning.
More comments appreciated if you can see the photos.

Aeron

 

[88v8]

Underfloor heating... the folks up the road have it in a new extension they added to their period farmhouse.

We call the extension The Toilet Block because that's what it looks like but that's btw.

When there's a cold snap, they get out a fan heater while the underfloor catches up. If the weather suddenly warms up, they have to open the windows.
It seems to be akin to having storage heaters, only worse.
OK for low-level background heating, perhaps, so long as there's another system for the foreground.
Just my perception.

Ivor

 

[Zebra]

Yes it is doable, I am renovating a 17th century house to very good insulation values, although not much of the original fabric is left, it's true. Yes you are mad, so are we all on here, so welcome.
As far as your thoughts about methods and materials are concerned, it's hard to say at this stage. I took my house on, not knowing any of what I would do to make it breathable, structurally sound, dry, warm, etc. If you do love it then do it, and live with it for a while before you take any major decisions. In particular, be careful not to destroy anything in your early enthusiasm which you may later regret.
I don't know about the extension, but I think you are probably thinking along the right lines with limecrete floors, lime hemp internal wall insulation, internal limewash paint, breathable external wall insulation and lime render, wooden windows, wood burner.......
Please do post pictures when you are able. You say you will lose character - so we would be interested to see what the building looks like now.

 

[tobydog]

Underfloor heating... the folks up the road have it in a new extension they added to their period farmhouse.

We call the extension The Toilet Block because that's what it looks like but that's btw.

When there's a cold snap, they get out a fan heater while the underfloor catches up. If the weather suddenly warms up, they have to open the windows.
It seems to be akin to having storage heaters, only worse.
OK for low-level background heating, perhaps, so long as there's another system for the foreground.
Just my perception.

Ivor

We have underfloor heating in our new vaulted kitchen extension. Although the house is old, the extension is 50% glazed and, as such, we had to compensate with considerable insulation. The first year we had the heating we made the mistake of running it on a timer. We ended up with the heating yo-yoing up and down. Now we have it on constant and just use the thermostat to control it. We hardly have to touch it. Its very efficient and the boiler fires up far less frequently. It soon adjusts to changes in the weather. For us it definitely works which is a big bonus given that we have nowhere for radiators anyway.

 

[Flyfisher]

We had underfloor heating installed in the floor of our new kitchen extension but with no intention of using it as a primary heating source to track the weather, only to provide a constant background heat to keep the chill off the house and to enable the wood stoves and radiators to more easily provide the weather-dependent requirements. That's the theory anyway. If only we could get a confirmed date for the delivery of our heatstore we'd be in with a chance of putting it all into practice this winter, but with only another couple of months before springtime it's beginning to look as if it will be next winter before we can really put it all to the test. Plenty of patience is needed for this period property lark!

 

[lou]

Hi there
It's ages since I posted but your proposals prompted me to issue a word of warning regarding hemp plaster. It's a new and probably previously untested to the extent that this winter has presented. We live in a renovated 500 yr old stone farmhouse in SE Wales. We too hoped to achieve some level of insulation by applying a very thick layer of hemp plaster which has been lime washed but I fear that it acts rather like blotting paper. The principle of a breathable building is that water ingress is drawn back outside when the rain clears, but not if the hemp retains the moisture which it appears to have done with us. Where the rain has soaked into the interior walls, black and white mildew is forming and the dark moisture staining isn't going away. It looks awful and I do to know what, if any, the solution is. Anyone with any ideas out there?

We have underfloor heating with a limecrete floor and stone flags and bagged lime render outside, for info, so should be completely breathable. It's not breathing out though :?

 

[88v8]

="lou... a word of warning regarding hemp plaster. It's a new and probably previously untested to the extent that this winter has presented. We too hoped to achieve some level of insulation by applying a very thick layer of hemp plaster which has been lime washed but I fear that it acts rather like blotting paper. The principle of a breathable building is that water ingress is drawn back outside when the rain clears, but not if the hemp retains the moisture which it appears to have done with us. Where the rain has soaked into the interior walls, black and white mildew is forming and the dark moisture staining isn't going away. It looks awful and I do to know what, if any, the solution is.
... should be completely breathable. It's not breathing out though :?

Breathing out depends on a decent period of dry weather, I think.
We (or rather our chequebook) applied a layer of hemp plaster as an undercoat in the dining room two years ago. The wall - painted with Earthborn clay paint - was until recently a foot underground at the bottom, and there are some localised sooty mould colonies at the junction of the floor and wall. Hopefully the wall will eventually dry out to an extent, and we will then execute the mould by chemical means or perhaps a blowlamp.

In the sitting room - formerly two feet underground - there is mould on the bottom two feet of the wall. Less prominent as the wall is unplastered and unpainted, but it is there.

I suspect you are right - hemp may exacerbate an existing damp problem. A point well made.
Solution? The wall must be dry. Easy to say.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Lou, are you sure you don't have some water coming in from outside through a crack or gap??? I didn't like the sound of hemp, and I mixed a lime plaster with perlite as I thought that would have insulating properties and be lightweight. My thinking was that if it got wet the perlite wouldn't be affected, but I was concerned that the hemp may rot in the event that it was wet for a while. It was very gritty and not easy to put on, although it was lightweight so didn't fall off the wall. I hope the experiment doesn't backfire long term. To be honest I would just use sand in the future, as I'm not convinced of the insulation value of either unless put on very thickly.

 

[TheForge]

Don't rule out condensation as a cause of black mould. It thrives on fresh water and most types wont tolerate any salinity. Water that has been driven through your walls may have been contaminated with salts etc.

 

[CliffordPope]

It's lovely. Don't change anything!
If you don't want a cold draughty house with character buy a modern one.
Wales is full of characterless concrete bungalows built on the sites of lovely old houses.

For planning purposes never use the words "abandoned" or "derelict". Get the cows and stalls out quickly, and make it look like an appendage to the main house whose use has never changed - accommodation overspill, storage, home-office, games room, etc.
Never ask "Do I need permission ?" because they will say yes. If asked, simply say you are repairing and modernising, with no change of use, no notifiable work, no new building.
Don't take the roof off!

 

[Zebra]

To be fair, Aeron has at no point mentioned building a concrete bungalow on the site of this old house, and I don't think that we should be too negative about the prospect of making this house comfortable, although the road to that destination might be a rocky one. Some of the ideas you mention Aeron, like limecrete floors, installing a woodburner etc, I don't think would be detrimental to the building's character. Neither would improving loft insulation and other such minimally invasive alterations. The extent to which your two aims can be made to sit together - retaining the building's character and improving it's thermal performance - is a constant balancing act, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution. The question is perhaps the extent to which you are up for the years of hard work, the disruption, the cold and damp, mess and chaos, failures and triumphs, while you try to put the place in order. Are you up for living on your Dad's farm?

 

[AeronP]

Hi there
It's ages since I posted but your proposals prompted me to issue a word of warning regarding hemp plaster. It's a new and probably previously untested to the extent that this winter has presented. We live in a renovated 500 yr old stone farmhouse in SE Wales. We too hoped to achieve some level of insulation by applying a very thick layer of hemp plaster which has been lime washed but I fear that it acts rather like blotting paper. The principle of a breathable building is that water ingress is drawn back outside when the rain clears, but not if the hemp retains the moisture which it appears to have done with us. Where the rain has soaked into the interior walls, black and white mildew is forming and the dark moisture staining isn't going away. It looks awful and I do to know what, if any, the solution is. Anyone with any ideas out there?

We have underfloor heating with a limecrete floor and stone flags and bagged lime render outside, for info, so should be completely breathable. It's not breathing out though :?

Hi Lou,
Thanks for your comments.
How thick are your walls? Do you have any other forms of heat other than underfloor? Do you think that if you added external insulation and then a lime render on top that this might help, obviously this would be expensive and possibly alter or ruin the character. This is what I am thinking of doing to this old house.
Ty Mawr "www.lime.org" who are based in Brecon, Powys might be able to help.

Aeron