Van Dyke Crystals

[MD]

Merry Christmas all ....

Has anyone any experience of using Van Dyke Crystals to colour oak - I gather it is a traditional method.

I'd like to make some new internal oak blend in a little with the older beams and stud work, but a lot of the modern stains and waxes don't seem to give the right depth of colour so i thought maybe these crystals might be a better option.

I'd be interested in any thoughts.

 

[essexbearhunter]

Although I've never used them myself, the link below contains useful advice:
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/tecAniline.htm
Merry Christmas

Ian

 

[joatex]

If you have a plastic bag large enough to contain the oak pieces. put a small quantity of 10% ammonia on a saucer at the bottom of the bag, pop in the oak standing vertically, close and seal the bag , leave for a few hours and assess. If too light leave longer otherwise remove. You would be able to achieve almost a bog oak colour in time.

 

[MD]

I've read a little about using ammonia to age oak, but as I'm talking about ceiling beams, wall studs, sole plates, door frames, skirting boards etc, I'm not sure how practicle it is as I can't pop it in a bag as you could items of furniture. I'm just trying to make the difference between new and old a little less obvious.

 

[philmac1944]

Compliments of the season to one and all

Van Dycke crystals are water based and very easy and economical
to use.

The finish you achieve will depend on the concentration of your
mix. I keep bottles of several different `strengths` with their
associated wood samples. It dries much lighter than the colour
on first application.

Being water based it tends to lift the grain, but a light sanding
should remove this without reducing the stain. You can also
add another finish on top of this eg. wax.

As with all stains it is advisable to practice with an offcut
or in a place which may not be seen in order to establish the
effect you wish to achieve.

 

[Penners]

I'm just trying to make the difference between new and old a little less obvious.

But why? One of the great joys of repairing the oak frame of a period property is to be able to see the new work alongside the old, making the natural development of the building obvious.

The new oak will soon start to colour naturally, turning first a reddish honey colour, and then gradually darkening.

Each to their own, but I wouldn't make any attempt to colour the new wood artificially.

 

[Moo]

To give him his due, Penners, he didn't say that he wanted to eliminate the difference between new and old - just to make it a little less obvious.

 

[Penners]

I still like letting nature take its course. Just my ever-so-'umble opinion.

 

[MD]

I can see your point, Penners. I certainly won't be rushing into any wholesale colouring without trying a few discrete patches. To me, the starkness of the new oak detracts from the rest of the exposed frame and I still think I'd perfer it shaded down a little. But as you say, its personal choice and different things look good in different surroundings. Besides, I'm not sure I have enough years left to let nature take its course!

 

[biffvernon]

If you put nothing on new oak you might be surprised at just how quickly it becomes no longer new looking.

Thought for the new year:

Doing nothing is often the best approach to many problems, action being only employed as a last reort.

 

[skier-hughes]

Doing nothing is often the best approach to many problems, action being only employed as a last reort.

That's what I keep telling Jo, but she's not having it

 

[Penners]

Doing nothing is often the best approach to many problems, action being only employed as a last reort.

I've just adopted that as my family motto.

 

[Toby Newell]

Yes. I cannot think of a better stain, it forms 90% of all my stains. I have recent pics of 300 yr old stone cottage where I matched in new oak to 300 yr old oak and elm.

Ah the smell... the look on peoples faces when you go into Tesco's with brown hands and you have to tell them you don't clean toilets for a living... all part of the fun.

Think of it like this, van dyke crystals (walnut crystals) made from concentrated refinement of peat. So just think of it Penners! You must have seen a beautiful piece of bog oak in your time, a piece of oak preserved in a peat bog for decades goes a beautiful deep brown.

So adding a concentrated peat bog dye to oak is probably the most environmentally friendly, most natural and realistic and beautiful thing you can do!!! (If M&S did a wood finishing range)This isn't just a stain... this is an organic naturally occuring several hundred year old recipe stain... even you must concede Penners as stains go its pretty much natures best! (Anyway I DO admire your almost fervent passion to keep thing natural!)

BTW pls see my piece in finding out section, link to my site broken but many pics on there of van dyke staining, 1000's of pics I can send you. If you do stain then it's the best one. I use a little washing soda to aid penetration and for that slight reaction with tannins which makes stain deepen and go slightly grey, you can add a sprinkle of vegtable black dye (made from decayed plants...) to deepen. Seal in with Special pale or button shellac then wax or do whatever.

TIPS:

Make in large pot
Water must be BOILING
Water must be added to crystals, NOT other way round (try and see why)
Stir for few minutes, soda helps mixing
Although a mordant stain vdc do have slight pigment qualities esp at thicker concentratoins so work fast and plenty of wiping off cloths needed, an extra pair of hands is v handy esp for inexperienced.

 

[Toby Newell]

TIP TO ORIGINAL POSTER: Add crystals to freshly boiled water stirring all the time NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

TIP TO SELF: Go to bed.

 

[biffvernon]

Water must be added to crystals, NOT other way round

and later

TIP TO ORIGINAL POSTER: Add crystals to freshly boiled water stirring all the time NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

Er, would you care to elucidate? Was the second a correstion of the first?

Given a large supply of walnuts, how do you make Van Dyke Crystals?

Bog oak, as I understand it, is older than decades. I have some large logs which I believe to be 4-6000 years old. I think they may be pine rather than oak but they are called 'bog oak'.

 

[Penners]

Most of my timber is bog standard.

I DO admire your almost fervent passion to keep things natural!

I'm afraid my motives aren't really that laudable, Toby. I just like to look at my new timber alongside the old, and hope that future generations will say, "The bloke who repaired the timber frame did a good job."

Vanity, vanity....

 

[Toby Newell]

Sorry I did get a bit carried away and should have gone to bed a lot sooner.

You add the crystals to very hot, just boiled water, stirring all the time. If you add the water to the crystals they "melt" and clump up and will not mix. Sorry for the confusion, try both methods you will soon see what I mean.

As far as I have been told by the manufacturers and all the polishers I know, Van Dyke Crystals are either made from peat or similar (organic decayed matter in earth) or from walnut husks, the name is sort of interchangable with walnut crystals which are made from walnut husks, they give the same colour. Both are water soluble, it is possible you could find a recipe here

http://home.onemain.com/~crowland/Pages/Walnut.html

You can also make your own French polish and waxes... and I have done so but you have to draw a limit somewhere as many customers are reluctant to pay for a couple of man days work before you start the job to make your materials! I do make mostly all of my own stains though. Ordinarily the good manufacturers have been making these materials for a hundred years or so to the same recipe so you are unlikely to be able to do a better job, although it may be fun.

As with many of the old materials I use, there are normally more than one version. It is something which constantly puzzles me as well are they from walnut or earth?! Either way both are organic and give a lovely colour.

Please do not be confused into purchasing modern type "van dyke" colour/stain which is the same colour made from analine dyes, you can tell these as they will be very fine, like table salt and have a deep maroon appearance. Real van dyke crystals will look like very large black sea salt with a variation in size.

Come on Biff, you should be able to tell your oak from yer pine! As far as I understand it bog oak doesn't need to take millenia and true bog oak is, er, actually oak thats been found in a bog.

I cannot believe you have any large logs that predate God's son's arrival upon earth by four millenia but I am sure they look nice all the same. If you can get them carbon dated I would be happy to come and gaze at them for a while. I am sure they must have gained quite a patination by now... it would almost be a sacrilidge to cut them up.

Ah and Penners, neither are mine. I just like to look at the new timber alongside the old that has been colour matched perfectly and hope that future generations will say, "What did that bloke do? I can't see anything" a kind of anonymous vanity...

 

[Flyfisher]

As far as I have been told by the manufacturers and all the polishers I know, Van Dyke Crystals are either made from peat or similar (organic decayed matter in earth) or from walnut husks, the name is sort of interchangable with walnut crystals which are made from walnut husks, they give the same colour.

We have a walnut tree and all I know is that prising the nuts from their husks makes your fingers look like you have a 100-a-day smoking habit. Lovely rich colour, but not very water soluble once the stain is under your skin!

 

[Toby Newell]

Ah yes, thats the ticket, I always remember my Grandfathers leathery palms caked in polish and bits of wadding with brown staining around the cuticles.... now mine look the same, my daughter (5 yr old) can now identify whether it is stain, polish, lacquer etc. There is something deep down that feels good when you get your hands "dirty". Tradition eh.

 

[Flyfisher]

Dirty hands indeed; that end of the day washing off all the dirt and grime (well, almost all) and thinking that a job's been well done, or maybe just done in my case. I'm certainly managing to keep my hands grimy and greasy during the winter months while getting my new, but very old, tractor ready for its springtime duties.

Fortunately my dear wife doesn't bat an eyelid when I drop an oily towel and boiler suit into the weekly wash. But then she was brought up thinking it was quite normal to have an engineering workshop in a spare room where her father would make and re-build racing engines for the coming weekend.