updating our cottage!

[jocelyn plummer]

We have been planning the updating of our ( 1986/7 traditionally built,) forever cottage. Nothing difficult about that I hear you all say---no, there is not I know exactly what I want to change, what materials, appliances and finishes to use, and of course after all these years of listed buildings and major renovations I think that both J & I have a pretty good idea of what is what when it comes to damp, ventilation, condensation dripping down walls and chimneys and plaster bubbling up etc etc.

With a modest budget in mind for the bathroom I have carefully sourced and had delivered new loo, bath, shower, shower screen, taps, hand basin , tiles and waterproof MDF tongue and groove, ready to have installed. Mindful of the competitiveness up here I have chosen 3 local companies for 3 quotes. The first one came along today---brought his plumber with him. I presented him with a written brief . Fine--until he started to tell me how he thought the room should look----completely ignoring my specifications he proceeded to tell me where the tongue and groove should go, what bath I should have , what paint colours to use, what to put on the floor, and oh by the way I might as well have the artex ceiling skimmed and an extractor fan and a new radiator as well. In the meantime the plumber was quietly reading my brief and making notes, didn't say a word, until I finally lost my cool and commented that I am not accustomed to being told how my bathroom should look and that I wanted it done my way or not at all, the builder's phone rang at that point and he rudely took the call telling the caller that he was in an important business meeting--whilst that was happening the plumber quietly discussed my written brief and confirmed that I had got all the right appliances they will fit/work etc, and made a useful suggestion re the towel rail. We then went on to discuss the second brief re our central heating/LPG versus electric/ storage heaters etc . Again the big blustery fella took control whilst the other stood quietly observing what is already here. Rip it all out says bluster--eventually quiet one said he reckoned we could get away with changing the size of one or two of the radiators and install a room stat etc--something to go on at least. All in all I presume that Mr Blustery big mouth is going to give us a price for the job---actually all I want is a plumber to do the plumbing ( NO PUNS PLEASE PENNERS), a joiner to do the MDF, and then I will sort the rest.

The second company we asked, had carried out the heating installations, the boiler, the LPG coal effect stove and fireplace, for the previous owners a couple of years ago--they took one look and said 'you cannot rip all that out it cost Mr & Mrs ******* a lot of money put that in'--I was gobsmacked what a thing to say--- anyway it turns out they have not really done the best job so I suppose they did not want to be caught out.

The third company have yet to make a n appointment to come out--I used them before when we were in Chelsea -by the Sea and the Holy Land so hopefully they might be less bumptious and more respectful.

It takes a lot to rattle my cage but I really have never ever been treated like a complete ignoramus when it comes to updating my house. I do miss my trusted Builder friend who has done most of the hard graft in all 5 houses over 30 years--we used to sit and discuss every little detail and he always found the way to make it work to my specs, all on an agreed daily rate no matter what the task. Sadly he is in semi retirement mode now so gone are the days when he could come up to Norfolk every day for 6 months with a bed and breakfast stay in the middle of each week.

Sorry Folks, rant over I shall just have to ask around the neighbourhood until I find 'a little one man band' who can do the work for me.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Sorry to hear that. Ones to avoid it sounds like. Good luck finding someone.

 

[mims&pip]

Commiserations Jocelyn - the cheek of some people It really does seem increasingly difficult to find a decent, reliable set of trades people that are sympathetic to a) older buildings (I realise your current home is not period, but same rules apply regarding reliability etc!) and b) their customer's requirements......

We've had our fair share of the less-than-perfect ones during the course of our various projects and tbh it has often been pure luck/being in the right place at the right time that has brought the better ones to our door :wink:

Yesterday we had a text from a neighbour with a recommendation for his painter and decorator, who later popped by to look at a couple of things we intend to do in order to ready this house for sale. He has done plenty of work on listed/period buildings, including some rather large/important properties and appeared to be very knowledgeable. Hopefully he will live up to our expectations!

Really hope you don't have to wait too long to find a reliable builder/plumber that can translate your plans for your new bathroom into reality

Mims x

 

[Zebra]

I enjoyed your description of the scene with the builder and the plumber Jocelyn, let's hope you have better luck soon.

 

[Penners]

Now I feel hurt! Would I really make a weak pun about a plumber doing plumbing for Mrs Plummer?!

:wink:

Joss - is the plumber who came with Mr Bluster an employee of his company? If not, and if he's a freelance that Bluster usually uses, could you not get details of the plumber independently, and ask him if he knows of a reliable decorator to do the non-plumbing work?

Alternatively, maybe you could try a new search on something like http://www.ratedpeople.com. I've never used them, but they claim to have thousands of trades on their books, who come recommended by others.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

In answer to your observation that the plumber may or may not be in the employ of Mr Bluster the Builder we are hoping not, J did a sneaky peek round the back of our cottage where they parked their vans yesterday. There were two, one with the Builder's name and the other with another name on. Un fortunately J did not quite catch all of the name. I had already asked Mr Observant where he lives and he told me . A Google search in the trade directory you mention did not show a plumber with an address in that village, but we think that we have seen his van amongst the many that line the village streets where the second homes are being renovated. So by keeping eyes peeled, we may espy him shortly. At some point during our conversation I did ask to whom I should send the list of my supplied items and Mr Bluster said 'to me'. so for this job he is in the employ of the builder--- until I decline or otherwise the estimate.

I have successfully caught up with my Kitchen fitter who tells me that everybody is mega busy so we will have a long wait! Interestingly the morning rush hour between Creake and Chelsea by Sea is dozens of builders vans and a few tractors! Chelsea by sea is awash with vans, I counted 9 outside one cottage, and In Walsingham one road is single line traffic for 40 weeks whilst a major renovation takes place along a row of 10 tiny cottages!

It is the Norfolk way---slowly does it--!!

 

[Keithj]

I tried Rated People several times for different jobs on the Norfolk cottage. I got very few "bites", and most of those didn't bother to turn up at the prearranged time. Nice idea, a glitch in the execution.

The one (a painter) who did come in Norfolk explained that he was giving up on it. They have to pay a significant amount of money for the "lead", which may or may not materialise. If it's only a little job in the first place, it makes no sense for the tradesman.

I now use the "local knowledge" system, which has been fantastic round here. Once you're in the loop, it seems they all know each other, and if your attitude is right they will pass on recommendations. We mentioned we needed a plumber somewhat urgently, the person said "hmmm". THE plumber appeared an hour or so later. We've never spoken to another plumber since. We have a fantastic painter, via the same channel. The carpenter-joiner is a quiet late-60s highly skilled craftsman ... and so on.

The only minor drawback is that I'm now part of the loop (sorting recalcitrant WiFi and taking funerals). No pay for either, but we don't seem to buy runner beans, lettuces, etc either.

 

[skier-hughes]

Ask Blustery guy to send the plumber to double check some of blustery guys ideas would work, then get quiet good guy's phone number, then call him back to come and do the work.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Thanks for that explanation Keith J --I did not have that trouble up here 10 years ago, but things have clearly changed a lot! Incidentally are you a Clerk in HOly Orders?

What a brilliant idea Skier--will try that! I think. We've probably managed to extract the log burner installer from Mr Bluster's clutches, and as Keith J, suggests I am beginning to crack into the local network through a person who worked for us 10 years ago in Chelsea by the Sea.. Interestingly Mr Bluster has not yet sent his quotation and the other company informed me that they have staff on holiday/sick/ taking tenders and they cannot offer a quote until the end of July --in other words they think our project is too small and insignificant-----!!

 

[Keithj]

Incidentally are you a Clerk in HOly Orders?

No, I'm the low-budget version: a Reader. The Diocese can't afford a full-time priest for the three parishes, so rather than a semi-retired part-time chap or being in a team of 12+ with a frazzled Vicar, we elected to do our own thing. There are six in the team: two SSMs, three Readers, and an Elder. It's working very well so far. We share the load - I'm mostly "buildings and funerals" with the usual rota of roles for Sundays. The SSMs do communions, baptisms and marriages, the Readers do the rest of the services, and the Elder (who is of course the youngest of the six) does the Youth Group and services.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Buildings and funerals seem a very interesting combination! But, it's good to know the three Parishes have a strong sense of community.

 

[Penners]

Joss, I favour Keith's suggestion: ask around among your neighbours. I'm sure they will know some reliable people.

As for the long wait, despite its frustrations it must be worthwhile. Better a good job tomorrow than a codge-up today!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Wise words Penners thank you !--we have now identified somebody in the village so we await!

Ironically Mr Bluster's quotation arrived in the post this morning and was vandalised by Jasper who insists on putting his paw on envelopes whilst trying to pick them up! After sellotaping it back together I found it to be a quite
professional quote but includes some things I did not ask for and one or two good solutions to something I did ask about.. VAT is not included which of course will shove the figures up considerably. I see he calls himself a Property Developer not a builder/heating engineer or whatever. We view it as a starting point for negotiation if we have to resort to him, but we will wait to see what Mr Local comes up with.

 

[Penners]

Hmmm... the problem with using Mr Bluster (as I'm sure you'll have surmised) is that you'll be paying him to engage the services of the actual tradesmen. If you can deal direct with the trades, it'll almost certainly be significantly cheaper.

 

[Keithj]

What Penners said! We analysed the tenders for the major works on the church. One of the firms quoting did very little work themselves: they added 15% + VAT to the prices of the subcontractors they were planning to use.

One honourable one told us they have to add something, because they pay the subbie immediately and then wait for us to pay, but normally only add 5%.

We split the job in three: building (honourable firm), electrical, AV, and are dealing direct with the experts. The electrical and AV companies know each other and will work together. We aren't paying the architect to supervise them either - I'll do that bit (not that it'll be much needed).

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Yes, I guessed there is a mark up somewhere along the line, otherwise Mr B could not have managed to build himself a fairly substantial residence in a village not so far away from us.

So, between all our shared thoughts and comments, we await the start of a new week and see where our deliberations lead us!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Well, is it me or is 'them'?

Estimate received! Bear in mind our bathroom is only approx. 9ft x 8ft, with a bath, loo, basin, shower over bath, full tiles to wet area to side and behind bath.
Task is to replace like for like except the new shower which is a new thermostatic control requiring chasing out to the wall

For this, £2,620.00 ex vat is required for day 1 to clear it all out. For day 2 & 3 to re-instate ,as supplied by me, the appliances and tiles to walls a further £2,128.00 ex vat is required, I leave you to total that lot up! Surely-----------a one man band with a goffer could do this at a better rate.

We await estimate from another !

 

[mims&pip]

Jocelyn, that does sound extremely excessive :shock:

We have a good friend with an award-winning high-end bathroom showroom (offering a supply and fit service) on the South Coast and Pip has occasionally helped him out as a favour in his capacity as an interior designer. Pip says that is way more than our friend would charge. He says such a job should take a week minimum and would be more in the region of £2-3000 inc vat max, but obviously it depends on how much of the plumbing materials, tile adhesives etc they are supplying (I know you said you are supplying sanitaryware, times etc) and if they are disposing of the old stuff, which obviously costs extra.....

Pip's view is that they probably don't want the job and have quoted accordingly :roll:

Should be interesting to see what the other quote comes in at!

Mims x

 

[plasticpigeon]

So £3k just to clear at all out??? That's funny. A skip is £200, and it might be 1 days work for 2 people, which I'd have thought would be £400 - £500 and that would be generous! I think it sounds ridiculous; about 4x what it should be. And then the quote for reinstatement is equally loony, adhesive is only a few quid. What is the going rate for trades these days? The last plasterer I used charged around £200/day, perhaps a little less and he was very good.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

In a nutshell, that is pretty much the way we are thinking! Actually we can dispose of everything except the bath ourselves using the faithful Landy, Norfolk reclaim and a very helpful landfill site around the corner. I suppose the bath could be sawn in half but that would be a lot of work !!!!! If I can stand the sight of 'damaged ' walls whilst we await some sensible peeps to do the rest of work, we could do the tiles now--we did the kitchen tiles, but I knew when larder cupboard was being delivered and it covered the whole area of carnage behind! We just bagged up the tiles and took them to the landfill!

Trouble with getting more senior in age is that we really don't want to be bashing the house around--been there--done that!