if you knew of a medieval building that was in very original condition but for some reason remained unlisted , even though everybody who seen it stated that it should be (estate agents etc etc) whose owners were planning on tearing down walls , plastering over original daub etc etc with no knowledge of preservation of old buildings what so ever meaning that the fabric of the old building could/would be lost for ever , what would you do? or more to the point , what could you do?
- Thread starter robgil
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FamilyWiggs
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Rob, one of experts (Gareth?) will be along shortly no doubt to advise on the formal steps that could be taken - if it really is the treasure you suggest, I'm sure there is a process for nominating for urgent listing consideration.
Meanwhile, how well do you know the owners? How well do you know their intentions, or could it be rumour? If you know them well enough, why not have a chat with them. Why not strike up a conversation about sympathetic building techniques, lime, breatheability, etc. "Cor blimey mate, the damage I'd have done if I hadn't found PPUK and learnt all that stuff. It'd have knocked thousands off the value!", etc
Assuming that the formal route won't be successful, the only way to save buildings is through education and persuasion; remembering that most homeowners will start from a position of viewing this as intrusion into "their" affairs - not having got the "custodian" argument we mostly subscribe to on here.
A tricky situation. I recall other similar threads on PPUK in the past - maybe search the archives might throw something up?
Keep us in touch with progress.
Meanwhile, how well do you know the owners? How well do you know their intentions, or could it be rumour? If you know them well enough, why not have a chat with them. Why not strike up a conversation about sympathetic building techniques, lime, breatheability, etc. "Cor blimey mate, the damage I'd have done if I hadn't found PPUK and learnt all that stuff. It'd have knocked thousands off the value!", etc
Assuming that the formal route won't be successful, the only way to save buildings is through education and persuasion; remembering that most homeowners will start from a position of viewing this as intrusion into "their" affairs - not having got the "custodian" argument we mostly subscribe to on here.
A tricky situation. I recall other similar threads on PPUK in the past - maybe search the archives might throw something up?
Keep us in touch with progress.
LadyArowana
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robgil said:
If I were in your position my response would be shaped by two considerations. Firstly how the building in question related to my own property and life, ie whether it was something I looked at every day, or if it was just a building I happened to know about via some much more indirect route. Then secondly by the knowledge that even though my own house wasn't listed ( I think you said earlier yours wasn't, apologies if I am wrong ) it could well be considered as meriting such designation, and how I would have felt if a neighbour with concerns had taken unilateral action to do that. I think FamilyWiggs is very sensible to suggest getting to know the owners and their intentions a little better. Just because there are probably lots of things you could do with regard to emergency listing/ protection doesn't necessarily mean it is the best thing you should do, particularly if you plan to live in the neighbourhood for a long time.
The previous owners of our house could only be described "serial objectors" ( disputes were disclosed as part of the legal searches ) and did not garner themselves a lot of friends as a result. One near neighbour in particular was accused of doing all sorts of inappropriate things to the historic fabric of the house on little actual evidence, and when inspected could prove that the facts were rather different. She told me she could never understand why they didn't talk to her first.
its not a neighbours house guys , its our cottage, basically we borrowed the money to buy this place from a family member who resides in greece. the idea that we all agreed on was we borrow the money , spend a couple of years settling into the community and fixing up the cottage then we could start saving for a mortgage to buy the cottage for the same amount that it was bought for.
however , this person then came to stay to see his new grand daughter and while he was here had an evaluation done on the cottage. as it stands the cottage is worth considerably more than was paid for it and when fully renovated will be worth more than twice as much (in estate agents language).
the five years has now dropped to one year and the amount to be paid back will be its current market value at that time. he knows we cannot afford to do this but just to make sure he also wants 7k off us as rent for the year, needless to say we are both gutted among other things. when we told him that we had an agreement he denied ever agreeing to anything , apparently this kind of behaviour is totally acceptable in greece :shock: .
anyhow , my main concern is that when he comes to develop the property , which i have no doubt he will , he (in his own words) will do it a cheaply as possible and hiding problems rather than fixing them will be the order of the day.
he wants to knock down an inner wall because it moved slightly a few hundred years ago and is now wonky , he wants to put in wood effect plastic windows , remove the lovely old wide floor boards etc etc.
although its finally sunk in that we have had the cottage pulled out from under our feet and we have learned to accept this, its hard to get our heads around its upcoming 'renovations' and i was wondering if there is anything we can do in the mean time to try and prevent this from happening.
however , this person then came to stay to see his new grand daughter and while he was here had an evaluation done on the cottage. as it stands the cottage is worth considerably more than was paid for it and when fully renovated will be worth more than twice as much (in estate agents language).
the five years has now dropped to one year and the amount to be paid back will be its current market value at that time. he knows we cannot afford to do this but just to make sure he also wants 7k off us as rent for the year, needless to say we are both gutted among other things. when we told him that we had an agreement he denied ever agreeing to anything , apparently this kind of behaviour is totally acceptable in greece :shock: .
anyhow , my main concern is that when he comes to develop the property , which i have no doubt he will , he (in his own words) will do it a cheaply as possible and hiding problems rather than fixing them will be the order of the day.
he wants to knock down an inner wall because it moved slightly a few hundred years ago and is now wonky , he wants to put in wood effect plastic windows , remove the lovely old wide floor boards etc etc.
although its finally sunk in that we have had the cottage pulled out from under our feet and we have learned to accept this, its hard to get our heads around its upcoming 'renovations' and i was wondering if there is anything we can do in the mean time to try and prevent this from happening.
Gareth Hughes
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Put it in for listing
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...ted-buildings/how-do-buildings-become-listed/
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...ted-buildings/how-do-buildings-become-listed/
if i sent the form in tomorrow Gareth how long would it take? as i see it a conservation notice cannot be issued unless the building is in immediate danger or has already been damaged so there is nothing stopping him from doing the work whilst a listing application is being processed.
Gareth Hughes
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Correct - that's why the system is a pain, however EH claim to turn round applications to list in under six months. You might contact Suffolk County Council's conservation officer, Mark Barnard, to see if he can speed things up (I know it's odd to go to the county rather than the district but it happens I don't know who your district CO is, or whether they're any good).
But your story does sound like it's turning into a nightmare.
But your story does sound like it's turning into a nightmare.
Gareth Hughes
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On the otehr hand, if your relative denies agreeing to anything, what's to prove you ever borrowed any money from him in the first place, or agreed to pay it back?
FamilyWiggs
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Rob - oh dear, I feel dreadfully sorry for you, as I am sure will every PPUKer.`
Gareth raises a very interesting question, and I don't feel it is a dishonourable course as honour seems to have been left at the gate some time ago by your relative.
In whose name is the property registered? Is there a contract of any form between you and the relative? If it is in your name and your are in the property, then I guess that strengthens your hand a little. Possession is 9/10ths of the law as they say.
I think you need to take proper legal advice, and not necessarily let the family angle cloud your decision. You could still honour the original agreement and put the onus on him to prove otherwise. Can he prove the money was not a gift anyway??
Gareth raises a very interesting question, and I don't feel it is a dishonourable course as honour seems to have been left at the gate some time ago by your relative.
In whose name is the property registered? Is there a contract of any form between you and the relative? If it is in your name and your are in the property, then I guess that strengthens your hand a little. Possession is 9/10ths of the law as they say.
I think you need to take proper legal advice, and not necessarily let the family angle cloud your decision. You could still honour the original agreement and put the onus on him to prove otherwise. Can he prove the money was not a gift anyway??
house is in his name guys , nothing really i can do. nothing was on paper because we trusted him.
there was even talk of tearing the house down and building a new bigger house in its place , this of course would never be allowed to happen but he is trying to think of the easiest way to cash in on this old cottage and cares not one jot about the house itself.
it bothers us that we have lost the cottage but at the same time i am glad he exposed himself and his true nature and intentions this early and not five years from now , that would have been messy. My real concern now (among other things) is the welfare of the house itself , as you can imagine we have grown quite attached to it and dread to think of it being cheaply renovated for a quick profit by someone who thinks oak effect plastic windows are beautiful and daub is a dirty thing that should be replaced with something more suitable.
there was even talk of tearing the house down and building a new bigger house in its place , this of course would never be allowed to happen but he is trying to think of the easiest way to cash in on this old cottage and cares not one jot about the house itself.
it bothers us that we have lost the cottage but at the same time i am glad he exposed himself and his true nature and intentions this early and not five years from now , that would have been messy. My real concern now (among other things) is the welfare of the house itself , as you can imagine we have grown quite attached to it and dread to think of it being cheaply renovated for a quick profit by someone who thinks oak effect plastic windows are beautiful and daub is a dirty thing that should be replaced with something more suitable.
JoceAndChris
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I'm so, so sorry to read this - how awful for you. I find it bizarre that he should turn from a position of extreme help to wanting the money back ASAP, especially in the light of you having a new baby. Has he been hit by the financial crisis in Greece? If so,there's really very little you can do, as you say, he'll want to turn the cottage back into money again and a quick job with cement etc is the easiest and cheapest way.
I'd apply for listing today and make an absolute nuisance of myself with EH and the contact Gareth has given you. Things can often be speeded along with constant pestering and pleading.
I'd also strike up a very frequent exchange with the grandfather to try to educate him about how to repair historic buildings, coming at him from the angle of suitable, in-keeping repair corresponding to English taste, not his, and therefore making the property more valuable and saleable to the English market, and also how inappropriate materials will lead to great structural difficulties in the future (doesn't sound like he cares about that though). Could you bargain with him by saying that you'll do the work yourself, if he agrees to the appropriate methodology, and so save him the fee of tradesmen? Even if you know you realistically can't in the time frame he wants that strategy could buy you time if you make out that you'll do all the work to save his money.
You can make people change their minds about what's nasty and nice - I've had great success with my parents and in-laws who'd have been all for new floors, tanking, and smooth walls. It takes so much time and effort though, continual dripping away, and from what you've said you're beyond all that.
You could get nasty and say that if he destroys the thing you love you'll find it impossible to continue family relations and he won't get to see or hear of his grand-daughter. Even if you have no intention of carrying out such a threat it might work- but that would need to be from your partner. It's a horrible situation, I wish you the best of luck.
I'd apply for listing today and make an absolute nuisance of myself with EH and the contact Gareth has given you. Things can often be speeded along with constant pestering and pleading.
I'd also strike up a very frequent exchange with the grandfather to try to educate him about how to repair historic buildings, coming at him from the angle of suitable, in-keeping repair corresponding to English taste, not his, and therefore making the property more valuable and saleable to the English market, and also how inappropriate materials will lead to great structural difficulties in the future (doesn't sound like he cares about that though). Could you bargain with him by saying that you'll do the work yourself, if he agrees to the appropriate methodology, and so save him the fee of tradesmen? Even if you know you realistically can't in the time frame he wants that strategy could buy you time if you make out that you'll do all the work to save his money.
You can make people change their minds about what's nasty and nice - I've had great success with my parents and in-laws who'd have been all for new floors, tanking, and smooth walls. It takes so much time and effort though, continual dripping away, and from what you've said you're beyond all that.
You could get nasty and say that if he destroys the thing you love you'll find it impossible to continue family relations and he won't get to see or hear of his grand-daughter. Even if you have no intention of carrying out such a threat it might work- but that would need to be from your partner. It's a horrible situation, I wish you the best of luck.
i am not sure why he did it Joce , he's not in any financial difficulty. he came up with quite a few excuses , most were fairly transparent and the rest were just bare faced lies so i can only assume he saw an opportunity to make some decent money. I am afraid i cannot educate the man about period property's as we are not really on speaking terms although he seems to think he has done nothing wrong however i cant even stand to be in the same room as him so its a bit of a difficult situation.
There are other houses out there like this one and we know we will be able to buy another in a few years so ive just put this down to one of those 'live and learn' situations.
Is there some kind of points system they use to list a house? perhaps based on how much of the original house still stands?
There are other houses out there like this one and we know we will be able to buy another in a few years so ive just put this down to one of those 'live and learn' situations.
Is there some kind of points system they use to list a house? perhaps based on how much of the original house still stands?
LadyArowana
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I am really really sorry to hear this. Sounds like the person has behaved horribly towards you. Since you think there is little chance he is going to change his mind about things then if I was in your situation I would immediately begin planning what was best for me and my family, and then what was best for the house. I know you love it and Gareth's suggestions about getting a listing done asap are spot on. However you should consider whether doing further work on it is really worthwhile. I know that sounds terribly harsh, but you would basically be labouring for free for someone else, and any money spent is just funds that could have been saved for somewhere else that really is your own. Sit there till it's listed, don't pay him rent, squirrel away as much dosh as possible, leave him with a listed building site and move somewhere without giving him the address.
JoceAndChris
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I agree with you LadyA.
Not sure about the points system fr listing but I was under the impression that anything as old as yours counted for more than, say, a Georgian building, if there's lots of original fabric left.
People on here have mentioned particularly rare features as helping the building to get listed.
Apart from that it's the points that EH have on their website:
"Age and rarity: most buildings built before 1700 which survive in anything like their original condition are listed, as are most of those built between 1700 and 1840
The criteria become tighter with time, so that buildings built within the last 30 years have to be exceptionally important to be listed, and under threat too. A building has to be over 10 years old to be eligible for listing
Architectural interest: buildings which are nationally important for the interest of their architectural design, decoration and craftsmanship; also important examples of particular building types and techniques
Historic interest: this includes buildings which illustrate important aspects of the nation's social, economic, cultural or military history
Close historical association with nationally important people or events
Group value, especially where buildings are part of an important architectural or historic group or are a fine example of planning (such as squares, terraces and model villages)"
When I was looking into it (I still want to get this one listed but it's a question of when - Chris is keen to do the work before) they wanted a full report of why you think it's listable with photos. I think that should be a detailed document that addresses some, or all of the points above. You need to convince them it's worth coming out to see.
And I'm so sorry about the father-in-law, he sounds impossible.
There will be another project for you I'm sure, which will come at a better time in your lives.
Not sure about the points system fr listing but I was under the impression that anything as old as yours counted for more than, say, a Georgian building, if there's lots of original fabric left.
People on here have mentioned particularly rare features as helping the building to get listed.
Apart from that it's the points that EH have on their website:
"Age and rarity: most buildings built before 1700 which survive in anything like their original condition are listed, as are most of those built between 1700 and 1840
The criteria become tighter with time, so that buildings built within the last 30 years have to be exceptionally important to be listed, and under threat too. A building has to be over 10 years old to be eligible for listing
Architectural interest: buildings which are nationally important for the interest of their architectural design, decoration and craftsmanship; also important examples of particular building types and techniques
Historic interest: this includes buildings which illustrate important aspects of the nation's social, economic, cultural or military history
Close historical association with nationally important people or events
Group value, especially where buildings are part of an important architectural or historic group or are a fine example of planning (such as squares, terraces and model villages)"
When I was looking into it (I still want to get this one listed but it's a question of when - Chris is keen to do the work before) they wanted a full report of why you think it's listable with photos. I think that should be a detailed document that addresses some, or all of the points above. You need to convince them it's worth coming out to see.
And I'm so sorry about the father-in-law, he sounds impossible.
There will be another project for you I'm sure, which will come at a better time in your lives.
phew , may have had a small reprise , we have just spoken to him and he has said he will give us two years to get our selves into the position to buy the house. Its still a far cry from 5 years but its doable , well , hopefully doable. this is the second time we have nearly lost this house , and i thought the stressful bit was before you buy?
so , what condition does a house have to be in in order to get a mortgage on it?
so , what condition does a house have to be in in order to get a mortgage on it?
LadyArowana
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robgil said:
I am sorry to say this but I wouldn't trust the man. He has already gone back on his word once. In my view this is just a ploy to keep you working on the house so that it is worth more to another purchaser. At the end of 2 years when it's looking much nicer thanks to all your efforts he will have it valued and offer it to you at that price, if you cannot secure a mortgage to buy it then it will go on the open market and someone else will buy it. By working on it all you are doing is increasing the amount you would have to try and borrow to buy it and at the same time spending the money you need as a deposit on materials. Think about your situation and ask yourself what exactly is going to change that will make you more likely to be able to buy the house in 2 years time ? find out from a lender now whether it is realistic to raise anything like the amount you need. Has he agreed to the original plan that would allow you to buy it from him at his purchase price? Honestly it's better to do some very hard thinking now than to toil away for 2 years hoping that everything will work out and then have to face unpleasant facts.
if im honest , and i hate to say it , i dont trust him either. we are having a solicitor draw up an agreement tomorrow but in all fairness if he reneges this time around i am unsure if it would be worth the paper its written on , there would need to be consequences put in order to stop him from doing this and i fear breech of contract wont be enough. i shall see what our solicitor says.
another problem , or perhaps not a problem as far as the agreement is concerned is that i wont be doing any work on the house until we buy it , one reason being as you guys have said, i dont want to add a load of value to the house to give him bait , but more importantly we need to save for a deposit so we simply wont have the cash to spend in the first place.
my concern is though when the bank comes to value the house will they say its un-mortgageable because of its present state? if so this means i will at least have to do the bare minimum to get it into a state where a bank will lend money on it.
another problem , or perhaps not a problem as far as the agreement is concerned is that i wont be doing any work on the house until we buy it , one reason being as you guys have said, i dont want to add a load of value to the house to give him bait , but more importantly we need to save for a deposit so we simply wont have the cash to spend in the first place.
my concern is though when the bank comes to value the house will they say its un-mortgageable because of its present state? if so this means i will at least have to do the bare minimum to get it into a state where a bank will lend money on it.
Gareth Hughes
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But if Mr Nasty has got valuations that say it's worth X now, and will be worth Y when finished (and both X and Y are considerably more than the Z that he agreed to lend), I'd have thought that even in current economic circumstances several banks would be willing to lend?