Unhelpful CO

[em7609]

Thank you for adding me to the group.
I am interested in buying a grade II listed cottage in Hampshire but the local CO has no interest in talking to me unless I file a full consent application or pay for pre application advice.
Is this normal?
Would anyone here be prepared to give me some broad advice about what can/cannot be changed without paperwork?
I would be very grateful
Emma

 

[Andys]

Our experience was that the planning dept aren't keen to get properly involved at the very point you want to know if you're going to have any problems with the listing, ie during your purchase. A cunning wheeze might be to submit a request for pre-application conservation advice (which is free in our bit of south hants) for something plausible, like replacement windows or an extension, get the CO to meet you at the property and he'll probably get all chatty and talk to you more generally once he's got going. You may at least get an indication of any obvious shockers

 

[mims&pip]

We had the same problem when we were looking to buy a large Grade 2 house that required a full programme of restoration in Wiltshire back in early 2011. Despite several attempts the CO just wasn't interested in meeting with us pre purchase.

Eventually we gave up on that property - that wasn't the main reason obviously, but it didn't help as 1) we really needed to consider the financial implications of what we would be allowed/required to do and 2) (most importantly) we were very keen to discuss a part-finished extension started several years earlier by the vendors that didn't appear to have LBC - and bought a very similar non-listed house in a different Wilts village. The other house took a further year to sell - at a greatly reduced price - and three years on the purchasers have yet to touch the exterior.....which is (still) in a terrible state of decay, leading me to think they have had similar issues

Mims x

 

[masochists-r-us]

What is it, you want to do ?

 

[LadyArowana]

The Local Authority for the area in which you wish to buy should have an "Online Planning Portal" of some type. This should enable you to view current applications for Listed Building Consent and also to review LBC's that have been actually decided ( either approved, denied, approved with conditions or withdrawn ). These are a very valuable resource because it will give you an insight into what is currently being allowed and where things are being denied the reasons for denial. It may look daunting at first, but if you have a vague "wish list" of what sort of thing you might be wanting to do to a property you will soon find that you can whizz through each "weekly list" rather quickly, ignoring all the requests for tree trimming/ removal etc etc and focusing on the buzz word of choice eg "conservatory" "cellar" "habitable space" "extension" etc.

It's a lot more work that just paying a consultant to give you their ideas about what you might be allowed to do, but it is valuable knowledge about the generalities of the LBC process.

In general I would counsel against buying a property where you feel that doing something requiring LBC is essential to your enjoyment of it. If it's something more marginal that you would like to do, but could live without or you feel there are other ways to resolve then not so much of an issue.

 

[mims&pip]

The Local Authority for the area in which you wish to buy should have an "Online Planning Portal" of some type. This should enable you to view current applications for Listed Building Consent and also to review LBC's that have been actually decided ( either approved, denied, approved with conditions or withdrawn ). These are a very valuable resource because it will give you an insight into what is currently being allowed and where things are being denied the reasons for denial. It may look daunting at first, but if you have a vague "wish list" of what sort of thing you might be wanting to do to a property you will soon find that you can whizz through each "weekly list" rather quickly, ignoring all the requests for tree trimming/ removal etc etc and focusing on the buzz word of choice eg "conservatory" "cellar" "habitable space" "extension" etc.

It's a lot more work that just paying a consultant to give you their ideas about what you might be allowed to do, but it is valuable knowledge about the generalities of the LBC process.

In general I would counsel against buying a property where you feel that doing something requiring LBC is essential to your enjoyment of it. If it's something more marginal that you would like to do, but could live without or you feel there are other ways to resolve then not so much of an issue.

Very good suggestions Your Ladyship It does seem that there is little consistency across the planning portals of different Local Authorities though - where we currently live there appears to be far less info available to the casual searcher than our previous location in Wiltshire. Furthermore there is even less consistency in the attitudes of COs towards properties within their different jurisdictions and I can never understand why some buildings that should obviously be listed (the untouched 15th century thatched houses in our last vilłage for example) that are not, whilst others of extremely dubious merit are......but that of course is a subject for a whole new discussion :roll:

Going back to your last point - it definitely makes sense for the OP (or anyone else for that matter) to avoid purchasing a listed property that they would want to alter beyond recognition in order for it to suit their requirements. The (non-listed Georgian thatched) house we eventually bought in 2011 already had a small extension that we had no problems with demolishing and replacing with one better suited to the character of the existing house, whereas the listed house we chose not to buy would have been top heavy and unsuited to *modern* expectations kitchen-wise, had it turned out that the half-built extension had been erected without LBC and subsequently had to be removed :shock:

Mims x

 

[em7609]

Thank you all very much for your input.
For pre application advice there is a fee and 30 minutes time limit. If you want the CO to come out I think the cost is doubled.

It looks like most of the modernisation was done before it was listed i.e central heating.

I would be happy with the building as it stands, the most important thing for me would be to re model the bathroom and kitchen. Just replacing it.

Moving further on I would like a back door (none currently exists), and I feel moving some of the internal partition walls might give a better living space. I would also like to remove the massive hedge at the front border and open the garden area up to enable a car to be parked there.

It concerns me that there is quite a bit of modern plastering inside, would I need to rip this out and replace with something more breathable to avoid damp?

Ive got a copy of the title and plan. It seems there is also a mistake in the description of the property. Confusion concerning whether first floor/ground floor parts belong to the property or next door. Either the title description is wrong or the house is being used incorrectly which is a worry.
I would be really gratefull for any further thoughts.
Emma
Theyve been trying to sell this place for about 3 years so i would be in a good position especially given the few issues that may need resolving.

 

[xanthe]

What kind of property is it?

Our CO came out straight away but the whole street is one that they are obsessive about - let alone the house.

However, they won't commit to anything in advance - best you can hope for is an indication as to whether it's a definite no or if they might perhaps consider something.

One way round could be to find a surveyor with extensive experience with listed buildings in the area and who knows the foibles of the local CO. Even though our CO came out, the surveyor was spot on in his assessment of what the CO would say about things.

 

[88v8]

If you post a link to the house, and an idea of what you have in mind, I'm sure you will get some guidance here.

I guess some COs just don't have time to talk to every possible buyer of every listed property, much as they might like to.


Ivor

 

[steveb]

paying for pre-application advice in my opinion would be worth it. Contrast the cost of that to solicitors fees, surveyor's fees and the purchase price..

 

[livias]

If you are seriously thonking of buying a house, then preapp advice is worth paying for before you put in an offer imo. Check that it is the same in your area but in mine the cost covers one visit and one followup email. The followup email is def worth having cos then you have written evidence that "you said I could do ..." which you can present with your listed building / planning application in due course and they will normally stick to what they have already said.

Before you pay for preapp you should indeed try to find out what is likely to be acceptable (looking at previous applications is a good idea) and be ready with a clear idea of what you want ... which in my case was will you accept a link from the stable to the old house? Answer: Yes if it is glass

 

[em7609]

Thank you all.
I guess Im just nervous about spending money which could be wasted but I take the point that it could be a life saver one way or the other.

It looks like most of the modernisations like central heating have been done before the building was listed. All I really wanted to know from the CO was could I refurbish the kitchen and bathroom without any problem and perhaps move one or two dividing partition walls to make better use of the space. If I have to fight for that, I would give up right now. Apart from those things, I like the house as it is but I need to know I can update things without resistance. I was just really taken back by how I got fobbed off.

I have spend a little money on getting the title and plan. Seems there is a problem (possibly a typo) which causes confusion about how the floors are divided up. Does anyone know, is the second floor of a normal 2 story house the loft space or does it refer to upstairs?

It looks like there is quite a bit of modern plaster etc inside which has caused a small amount of damp. To make the house breathe again, would I be looking at ripping off all the modern covering and replacing it?

There are some more alterations I should like to make but I would not bank on getting permission. Apart from I will have a look at the planning portal though, will give a good indicator. Thanks

 

[xanthe]

Our POs put in a ridiculous injected DPC and in the process ripped all the old plaster off the walls and replaced with modern plaster.

Have since discovered that the surveyor was spot on in them having covered old wattle & daub and lath & plaster with modern plaster as well.

We have no damp (house is VERY well ventilated) but were advised to remove all modern plaster ASAP to avoid any damage.

Given you have damp, I would guess it's a no brainer. What does your surveyor say?

 

[livias]

You should be OK to refit bathrooms and kitchens. I don't think Conservation Officers care about that sort of thing. Ditto with moving partition walls if they are modern stud walls. They would get excited if you wanted to move an old lath and plaster partition wall. The rule of thumb is that anything which interferes with the historic interest of the house will be of interest to them. That said, my Conservation Officer is happy for me to move modern stud walling and refit kitchens and bathrooms but does want a paper trail of permissions so I must include a mention of it in my Listed Building Application

 

[formerly known as]

Thank you for adding me to the group.
I am interested in buying a grade II listed cottage in Hampshire but the local CO has no interest in talking to me unless I file a full consent application or pay for pre application advice.
Is this normal?
Would anyone here be prepared to give me some broad advice about what can/cannot be changed without paperwork?
I would be very grateful
Emma

I would suggest that your topic should read ''unhelpful Local Planning Authority'' - The c.o will be acting under instruction. In my experience, exploring a building - whatever the state of play with regards to ownership or statutory application/s - is one of the perks.

 

[Penners]

In the past, my experience has been that COs were very happy to come out and have an informal chat/advisory session about your plans for a Listed Building, without charge. However, I suggest that today's budgetary constraints have now made that impossible for them to do.

So you have a choice: either wing it and put in an LBC application (which I hope is still free), then wait to see what the outcome will be, and make changes in the event of a refusal. Alternatively, pay for the CO's advice before you put in the application, in the hope that this will make consent much more likely.

It comes down to a simple equation - the first choice will be free but might take you some time, the second will cost but will probably be quicker.

 

[MatthewC]

I'm sore about my experience of the CO here (in 2010/11), and I'm still trying to get over it. My advice is that until you actually make an LBC application, you cannot rely on what you might have been told verbally!

Check on what the rules are (they might be different locally) - they should publish a document saying what you need LBC for (and there might be a separate one if you are in a Conservation Area). Then rely on your own interpretation and put in an application for just the things that need it - I wouldn't include things that are exempt; for instance, in this area, a like for like new replacement did NOT need LBC. As has been said above, they are not interested in a lot of little things, but rather mostly in the larger things that affect the historical interest and character of the house. Once you understand the rules, act in the spirit of them and use your discretion then I don't think you will go far wrong.

Don't forget that they may approve your LBC application with conditions some of which may have to be discharged BEFORE you can start work, so you basically have to apply again which doubles the timescale. Some of the conditions you may decide to ignore - one of mine was that I had to complete the new drive "before the property was first occupied" - it was only 150 years old and I didn't feel that they had the right to stop me living in it when I chose, so the drive was part done as planned and finished when I decided.

I hate to say it but not having the CO look at your house now could be a huge advantage; later on they cannot say that you have done something wrong as they didn't know what it was like to start with. In my case, I knew that so little had been done on the house that they could never have been inside, and a lot of the outside cannot be seen from public property. There are some questions that you are better off not asking because the answer might be some horrible constraint.

Needless to say, I am not a lawyer or surveyor so I accept no legal responsibility for the above advice - caveat emptor! You can read about my experiences on my blog - click on the blue spot on the right.

Matthew

 

[Keithj]

"Like for like" replacement can be vetoed, too. Our rotting window frames had the rot cut out and new wood cut in. It cost a fair bit more than "new".