Tree-ring dating

[charlieboy]

Has anyone used dendrochronology to find a date for the construction of their timber framed property?
Is there a firm that you could recommend?
Did you feel that the process provided the answer you wanted?
The reason I ask is that three experts (architect, surveyor and a brick expert) have dated the oldest parts of our house as a) 13th century b) 15th century c) 16th century (so in other words the experts cannot agree).
Rather than dendrochronology would it be better to find someone who was a real expert in timber framed buildings? How would I find such a person?
Sorry for all the questions!
cb

 

[Zebra]

It is sometimes very hard to tell the age. I have only an approximate guess for mine. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone on here using that method to determine the age of their house but I'd be interested to know what you find out.

 

[TheForge]

Out of interest who was the brick expert?

Maybe these people could help?

http://www.tree-ring.co.uk

Radiocarbon dating might be more accurate but expensive.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/datingtech/dating_technology.htm

 

[MikeG]

I've been involved in the dendrochronological investigation into the age of a building. (It dated to 1432, from memory, as an aside). It was quite fascinating, and if anyone wants to hear the hilarious story of the young-earth-creationist doing work experience with the dendro company, someone will have to let me know the rules on religion here before I tell it. Turns out that East Anglia has one of the longest near-continuous dendro databases in the world. Remember, dendrochronology is a very local thing: it's no use comparing a sample of timber from Devon with a database in Durham. As to the name of the company (it may even have been an agency) I haven't the first idea. Sorry.

 

[steveb]

I guess a valid question is - are you dating the building or dating the timber - what are you trying to achieve?

Our cottage had timber in it that was reputedly salvaged from the spanish armarda fleet. I don't believe it for a minute although what is now a miserable kind of ditch was apparently navigable down to the Thames at Tilbury in times of old - but the main timber was clearly already "reclaimed" at the time the cottage was built as it had significant holes and workings that were not related to the building. So dating our timber would only date the wood, not the building.

Likewise we found a couple of coins (cartwheel pennies) dated 1797 - but after much head scratching we think that all they proved was that someone had lost 2 pence at some time in the past

-Steve

 

[Pennyviz]

Hi

I had Linda Hall to take a look at my house. She is a vernacular historian and written a book "Rural Houses of North Avon and South Gloucestershire 1400-1720, ISBN 0900199212", and is widely cited. My parents farmhouse was described in the book so although Linda is retired and now lives in Wales, she was kind enough to come out and take a look. She confirmed that part of the roof structure probably dates to mid 1300's as part of a medieval hall and is similar to a couple of other properties dating from the same period locally. She did also say the only absolute way to confirm dates is dendro dating. However my parents did try this on their house and the samples obtained couldn't give a clear date, so it depends on whether the sampler can get a good cross section. I'm a bit worried about boring holes in what is already quite worm eaten wood. Obviously dendro dating also dates when the wood was cut, so it might have been used in a previous structure so all you can do take a view on all the evidence.

Penny

 

[charlieboy]

Thanks for your thoughts so far.

The reason I ask is that although my house appears to be Georgian about 1800, the façade (including a 3 metre tall parapet) was added to a much older building.
There is a stone part which can be seen in the image

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6341573,-2.4474914,3a,75y,82.15h,85.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI8tl5O9V8ZVd6-Plkg6Mag!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The purlins in the roof of the stone part are obviously previously used timbers.

Between the stone part and the brick extension (dated to about 1720) is a fragment of timber framing which I believe could be part of something even older than the stone part. This timber framing shows no evidence of re-use so tree ring dating of this might give me a date for the earliest part of the house.

How unusual would it be for a stone building to have one gable in stone and the other in timber framing?

(The stone part has a few very unusual features that I will perhaps mention in a further question to the forum)

cb

 

[88v8]

Our cottage - reputedly 1620ish - was begun in stone, continued in timber frame and stone. In an evolved building I guess it's more likely to find disparate gables, but in a building constructed as a whole I'd have thought it unlikely, unless it were built by a Victorian revivalist aiming to be 'medieval'.

We have main timbers that have clearly been reused, and some that may not.
If you have ship's timbers, the process would be interesting but useless, as the timbers could have come from anywhere and without a local database there is no chance of dating them.

It's clearly quite a palaver, this dendrowotsit
http://www.oxford-dendrolab.com/sampling_procedures.asp
and needing at least 50 years of growth it would have to be a pretty chunky timber.

Ivor

 

[Pennyviz]

One end of the medieval hall structure has been lost and the wall rebuilt, I've got wonky walls and additions all over the place from various periods plus buttresses, filled in doors and windows etc. The place has obviously almost collapsed and then been rebuilt at least once, might this have happened to yours? The Georgians I gather were quite keen on adding facades onto existing buildings; timber framed buildings were sometimes all timber and stone walls added later I believe.

Penny

 

[Pennyviz]

Might be of interest?

http://www.buildinghistory.org/style/vernacular.shtml

https://archive.org/details/oldhallsmanorhou00ambluoft

 

[livias]

Norfolk Historic Buildings Group have hsd a lot of dendro work done. You could ask them who they use

 

[MikeG]

.....Our cottage had timber in it that was reputedly salvaged from the spanish armarda fleet......

Virtually every owner of a timber framed building will have been told by "someone" that their timbers originally came from a ship. This is almost always complete and utter twaddle, and gives me such a giggle. Someone who should have known better told me that the timbers in my cottage originated in a ship, so I pointed out the "diamond" mullion mortises, and the horizontal sliding shutter/ sash grooves........neither standard items on a ship. The shaped plate to take rafter feet was a bit of a clincher though, as not many ships have pitched rooves. I then pointed out that the nearest port is half an hour away by fast car, or a day or two by horse and cart. I'll stick my neck out now and say that almost no-one who ever visits this forum will have a house containing ships timbers, but that won't stop the uninformed masses from perpetually telling them that it does.

 

[Flyfisher]

I suspect there are very few period properties that have remained unchanged since they were built, so it's not so much a case of dating a house as dating all the additions and modifications. Coincidentally, I was at Highgrove House today and it was explained how the facade of the house had been changed in the past 30 years or so (to 'soften' the previously stark lines) by the current incumbent (I'm guessing he doesn't have too many LBC problems).

The main part of our house is timber-framed, supposedly dating back to 1550, yet has been given a Georgian facade. One gable end has been added in stone and one room has a very ornately carved main beam, supposedly reclaimed from a monastery - so dating that beam may be interesting in its own right but couldn't really be used as an accurate guide to the age of the building it is currently supporting. Also, some of our roof timbers show signs of being previously used - which is entirely understandable but not necessarily helpful in terms of absolute dating. The modern use of reclaimed materials will introduce similar confusion for future property historians.

I'm in no way suggesting the dendrochronology, carbon dating or other methods are not worthwhile or interesting in their own right, but I'd regard them as just providing another clue about a building's history rather than a definitive answer - which is perhaps half the fun.

 

[Flyfisher]

Virtually every owner of a timber framed building will have been told by "someone" that their timbers originally came from a ship. This is almost always complete and utter twaddle, and gives me such a giggle. Someone who should have known better told me that the timbers in my cottage originated in a ship, so I pointed out the "diamond" mullion mortises, and the horizontal sliding shutter/ sash grooves........neither standard items on a ship. The shaped plate to take rafter feet was a bit of a clincher though, as not many ships have pitched rooves. I then pointed out that the nearest port is half an hour away by fast car, or a day or two by horse and cart. I'll stick my neck out now and say that almost no-one who ever visits this forum will have a house containing ships timbers, but that won't stop the uninformed masses from perpetually telling them that it does.

Yes, I've often smiled at such tales and wondered how many ships would have been dismantled in order to provide timbers for period houses. Alternatively, I wonder how many houses were dismantled in order to build ships? :wink:

 

[MikeG]

......I'm in no way suggesting the dendrochronology, carbon dating or other methods are not worthwhile or interesting in their own right, but I'd regard them as just providing another clue about a building's history rather than a definitive answer - which is perhaps half the fun.

Indeed. My cottage was probably built around 1700. The timbers may have been up to 500 years old at that time. I'd be intrigued to do dendro, not because I'd glean much information about my house, but for further information about the much higher-status donor property.

 

[livias]

I looked up who Norfolk Historic Buildings Grroup use and it is
IanTyers (Dendrochronological Consultancy ltd.)

 

[stuartlowb]

Interesting article related to this and what it can reveal:

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/14718182.Tree_ring_analysis_reveals_ancient_history_of_Droitwich_building/

 

[xanthe]

I read somewhere that there was a term 'ship timber' for certain bits of wood in the way that you can buy 'Tudor Red' bricks and that this had led to a lot of confusion with people assuming it meant that the timbers had come from a ship.

The only place that I have seen old buildings that genuinely had timber from ships was in Rotherhithe in London - given that the local industry was ship-building and breaking, it rather makes sense. The rather beautiful local church has furnishings made from timber from the Fighting Temeraire.

Experts disagreeing seems par for the course. Our surveyor and CO have completely different views on the origin of our cellar - house is c.1580 timber-framed, but the cellar is made of blocks of carved local sandstone. We are so close to the church that we are pretty much in the graveyard, and the church was originally part of a secular college that was destroyed after the Reformation. CO says cellar is the same age as the house, surveyor says it was built after the house using old rubble, and I've recently been told by a local that the cellar is probably C13th and part of the college and the house was then built on top. Guess I will never know for sure!

Please, please can we hear about the YEC and the dendro work experience - sounds brilliant... was either side converted??? :shock:

 

[MikeG]

........Please, please can we hear about the YEC and the dendro work experience - sounds brilliant... was either side converted??? :shock:

I don't want to break any rules. I guess I should read them first, so I know what I'm not breaking!!

 

[malcolm]

The cellar sounds interesting xanthe. Could you make a judgement based on structure? If the house is supported by the cellar walls the cellar is unlikely to be a later addition.

I have saved some wood removed from the rotten gable and would like to have it dated. I only have the date when the house was first let as a pub (1646), but a brick chimney was added at both ends around that time (and after the original construction) so I guess the place could have been built around 1600. I would be interested to hear how others get on with tree ring dating.