To save or not to save

[LadyArowana]

Rebuild or repair, once again this dilemma raises its ugly head, my full tale of woe follows:-

For my sins I am a member of the Conservation Committee of a jointly owned Edwardian red brick ‘mansion block’. We are currently working through issues related to the landscaping and associated works for a renewal of the carpark and perimeter built items.

Of immediate concern is the decision to completely rebuild or repair on a pair of gate piers. The building is not listed but is in a conservation area.

The piers in situ are sound at the moment, they are not out of true and not likely to be subject to heave by adjacent tree roots. However some of the bricks have spalled and the pointing appears to be a mixture of possibly lime in places and cement in other repaired areas.

Whist wishing to improve the look of these the committee is also mindful of cost and the inherent waste involved in rebuilding like for like.

So my questions are these.
Firstly, What would your recommended steps be for repairing the existing. I’m thinking along the lines of :-
Carefully removing the old pointing as far as possible
Removing individual damaged bricks and replacing with matched
Repointing with a suitable lime based mortar ( extra points for recommended mix )

Secondly, If going for a complete rebuild
What would be the best mix for the pointing?
Anything else which should be addressed in terms of type of bricks to visually match the existing but be less prone to suffering the spalling/ salts. These would have to be specified to a contractor in the schedule of works, so ‘reclaim or salvage’ items wouldn’t be suitable.

Any help and comments from the wise heads here much appreciated.

 

[stuart45]

I'd knock them down and rebuild. Cutting out bricks on a small pier causes stress fractures in the joints anyway, but rebuilding those piers won't take long. Do you want them rebuilt in Flemish bond?
The only real issue is how heavy is the top to remove and put back?

 

[Cubist]

One item I would add to the ToDo list would be to remove the, presumably, steel pins on which those gates/railings are mounted and replace them with stainless steel equivalents, Theres a small but appreciable chance that rusting mild steel could weaken and/or damage/destroy the bricks they are mounted in.

 

[Flyfisher]

My instinct would be to repair it but it might be difficult to find good matching bricks, plus it looks as if it has already been repaired/patched in places so another repair is not likely to restore it to its former glory. I'd certainly get quotes for repair and rebuild to help decide between patching things up until the remaining bricks also spall versus a complete rebuild with new bricks that would hopefully last us all out. A rebuild would also likely give a better looking end result, which might be an important value-for-money consideration.

 

[stuart45]

The new bricks need to be F2 and S2 rated. There's plenty to choose from for a match. Some of the old ones can be used for inside the pier.
You just need to book up Geoff Capes to lift the finial ball back into place.

 

[Cubist]

You just need to book up Geoff Capes to lift the finial ball back into place.

Coo, that's showing your age, and mine. Sad Mr Capes is gone now, quite a personality in his heyday.

 

[stuart45]

Coo, that's showing your age, and mine. Sad Mr Capes is gone now, quite a personality in his heyday.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I saw him once in Southsea presenting a strongman competition, that had some of the professionals you saw on TV, but was only an exhibition contest.
Before it started he offered £10 to anyone who could lift a barrow full of bricks off the ground. It had ropes attached and going up round a ginny wheel fixed to a post. He sat round the post and pulled the barrow to top with ease. In the competion it was to be timed.
It cost the public £1 for charity to have a go. A couple of really big lads stepped up, looked like serious body builders. I thought these 2 will easily win a tenner. Neither of them could budge it an inch off the floor.
I asked Geoff later if he thought anyone like these 2 lads might do it. He said there's a massive difference in strength between people like that and pro strongmen.

 

[LadyArowana]

I'd knock them down and rebuild. Cutting out bricks on a small pier causes stress fractures in the joints anyway, but rebuilding those piers won't take long. Do you want them rebuilt in Flemish bond?
The only real issue is how heavy is the top to remove and put back?

The aim would be to rebuild in exactly the same way as these, just with sound bricks, so if what we have is Flemish Bond then yes ( excuse my ignorance on bonds, I only remeber the one which has holes in! )

 

[LadyArowana]

One item I would add to the ToDo list would be to remove the, presumably, steel pins on which those gates/railings are mounted and replace them with stainless steel equivalents, Theres a small but appreciable chance that rusting mild steel could weaken and/or damage/destroy the bricks they are mounted in.

Thanks, sounds like a good plan if this is being replaced anyway, we want it to last as long as possible.

 

[LadyArowana]

My instinct would be to repair it but it might be difficult to find good matching bricks, plus it looks as if it has already been repaired/patched in places so another repair is not likely to restore it to its former glory. I'd certainly get quotes for repair and rebuild to help decide between patching things up until the remaining bricks also spall versus a complete rebuild with new bricks that would hopefully last us all out. A rebuild would also likely give a better looking end result, which might be an important value-for-money consideration.

There’s another pair of these piers which were built on the perimeter about 30 years ago when an old rotten gate was upgraded and they have aged very nicely, blend in well and are still in excellent condition. I don’t personally see a great deal of merit to spending £££ on these old ones to make them look slightly less bad when we could do a nice 150year job for not too much more £. However it is a committee recommendation which then goes to another board for decision

 

[LadyArowana]

The new bricks need to be F2 and S2 rated. There's plenty to choose from for a match. Some of the old ones can be used for inside the pier.
You just need to book up Geoff Capes to lift the finial ball back into place.

Thanks, I shall mention the necessary for bricks. There has been discussion about keeping the ball or getting new, but the heavy lifting aspect is the same for both. I assume a competent contractor has a work around for such eventualities. Our big balconette was lifted up to the first floor with a Genie, I was disappointed it didn’t emerge from a magic lamp wearing billowing silk trousers.

 

[LadyArowana]

Thanks, I didn't know that. I saw him once in Southsea presenting a strongman competition, that had some of the professionals you saw on TV, but was only an exhibition contest.
Before it started he offered £10 to anyone who could lift a barrow full of bricks off the ground. It had ropes attached and going up round a ginny wheel fixed to a post. He sat round the post and pulled the barrow to top with ease. In the competion it was to be timed.
It cost the public £1 for charity to have a go. A couple of really big lads stepped up, looked like serious body builders. I thought these 2 will easily win a tenner. Neither of them could budge it an inch off the floor.
I asked Geoff later if he thought anyone like these 2 lads might do it. He said there's a massive difference in strength between people like that and pro strongmen.

That’s why us little people know how to use other things. Case in point I just had to put a statue back on a short plinth. His Lordship lifted it off and even with gravity in his favour found it a challenge. I put it back by walking it up a ramp of shoe boxes

 

[Cubist]

Bond then yes ( excuse my ignorance on bonds, I only remeber the one which has holes in! )

Aw come on. No way you've never seen James - and he ended up with a couple of bullet holes in every instalment!

 

[LadyArowana]

Aw come on. No way you've never seen James - and he ended up with a couple of bullet holes in every instalment!

My favorite was Timothy Dalton, but he only lasted for 2 films.

 

[Cubist]

My favorite was Timothy Dalton, but he only lasted for 2 films.

Yes, by far the best and the grittiest - much, much better than Rat Face!