Timber frame butchered

[Bayliss]

Rather than extend our cottage perhaps we should move into something larger. With this in mind we viewed what appeared to be a possible new home. In Suffolk a part 16th century timber framed Hall House (part of). We knew it had been messed with but went to look full of hope. It wasn't until we went upstairs that the full horror revealed itself, a wonderful heavy arched cross brace truss had been severed leaving a three foot central section missing. Worse still the crown post was above the missing section. Apparently when the house was one dwelling somebody decided to open a doorway through this section of the house, common in old cottages but in a Hall House! First thought perhaps have a discussion with the neighbour, remove the plaster from the panels and repair the damage. I would post images, but the house, although empty, is not my property therefore I will have to rely on my descriptions.
Discuss please.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's a bit difficult to imagine the full extent of any 'butchery' without some photos, but I don't think such things are uncommon in 400+ years old properties - they've provided lots of homes for lots of families, all with different ideas and demands. Plus, of course, there were no COs, BCOs or structural engineers to oversee such changes. Are there any clues about when this hacking about was done?

We have a 1550 timber frame hall house and it has also been modified during its long history. Fortunately, it hasn't had anything done to compromise its structural integrity, though the attic has signs of some later strengthening timbers and some of the wall timbers have been removed to make openings for large Georgian sash windows. Fortunately, being close studded, it was probably over-engineered when first built so the missing timbers don't seem to have caused any problems.

None of which is directly relevant to your case because all these buildings are unique, but it's an indication of the sorts of things our historic buildings have endured during their long lives.

 

[Bayliss]

Thanks for response Flyfisher. The houses were listed in 1958 and are listed under separate house numbers, so the Tie Beam was cut prior to that date. Its the major beam which acts to tension and tie the exterior walls stopping any pushing out or thrust from the weight of the roof onto the exterior front and rear walls.
I would have expected to see the Crown post jointed into this tie beam or a secondary tie beam jointed in over the curved brace. No evidence of that at all. I cannot post pic's as its not my property, and sadly its likely never to be mine. As its a listed building I would need consent for re-instatement of the tie beam, I have a feeling the work could run into many thousands of pounds and would certainly impinge upon the adjoining neighbour as well. Nothing is impossible as I could perhaps use all this as a negotiating point. A diagram on Google shows the tie beam in schematic (as in 16th century Hall house frame).

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm only guessing, but I'd think that 50+ years would be enough for any bad effects of severing a tie beam to become noticeable. Was there any sign of bowing walls? Is it possible that steel ties have been inserted to compensate for the severed original beam? A steel tie would obviously be a lot smaller and not necessarily in the same place so might be concealed. We have a number of steel ties in the chalk-block add-on to our house, though I'm not sure if they were part of the original build or added later.

It's all part of the fun (I think that's the word :wink: ) of trying to figure out what has happened over the years, though ultimately it is the current condition that is the important thing when considering a new project.

 

[Bayliss]

Thanks again Flyfisher, if you logon to Rightmove and search Bildeston, Suffolk in the 250k price range you will find the house concerned. we see it as a lovely home once the work is done. Couldn't see any signs of serious movement in the house as a result of the problem. Hope the mods don't mind this post, just looking for advise or just comments.

 

[Zebra]

The yellowy one on the corner? Looks amazing! Sorry can't help with your structural problem!

 

[Bayliss]

The yellowy one on the corner? Looks amazing! Sorry can't help with your structural problem!

Yes thats the one, we would like it to become our new home, fingers crossed we can progress.

 

[Keith Bowman]

Presumably it is the inserted doorway under the crown post in picture no 7 which is of concern. Doesn't look as though there has been any significant movement. Is that carved wood between the tie beam and the curved pieces? Looks almost as though it could be cast iron and as though there might be an iron rod running immediately under the tie beam - possibly secured into the door frame.
And a jetty running round the gable end - presumably there are dragon beams running out into the corners. Looks as though it could be fabulous. Good luck

 

[Keith Bowman]

Whoops - should have read the description as well as looking at the pictures! Carved wooden spandrels (not cast iron brackets from Paddington station!) and its a dragon post, not beam. Still looks good though.

 

[Bayliss]

Yes it has huge potential to become a wonderful home, having had a look at the interior its obvious that the cross wing was added at a later date. It has heavy timber framing but unlike the sitting room which has moulded ceiling beams of high quality and the master bedroom above with the curved brace and crown post, again of high quality the remainder of the house are plain beams. Still all giving a lovely atmosphere only found in our very old homes We need to sell our cottage, fingers and toes crossed.

 

[LadyArowana]

I think I found the right property on Primelocation, I noticed that in the picture of the kitchen the range and the boiler may be sharing the same flue in the chimney ( difficult to tell from a small picture ). We had a similar situation in our house and because of the type of appliances involved this did not pass a safety inspection. Apparently the boiler has something fitted that means it can share with something else, but the range does not, it must have its own flue. I'm not sure this would apply here of course but it would be worth investigating.

 

[Bayliss]

I think I found the right property on Primelocation, I noticed that in the picture of the kitchen the range and the boiler may be sharing the same flue in the chimney ( difficult to tell from a small picture ). We had a similar situation in our house and because of the type of appliances involved this did not pass a safety inspection. Apparently the boiler has something fitted that means it can share with something else, but the range does not, it must have its own flue. I'm not sure this would apply here of course but it would be worth investigating.

Thanks LadyArowana, I noticed the flue pipe as well from the Aga for a different reason though. I don't like the look of that bend in the flue being almost right angle. If we are successful buyers that's another job. Hopefully we may find the Aga flue is in vitreous enamel and separate from the oil boiler. Thanks again for input.

 

[Penners]

I know that house quite well, Bayliss (externally). We used to live near Bildeston - once in Elmsett and once in Edwardstone, and I often noticed its very distinctive curved dragon post on the jettied corner.

The timber frame looks very interesting. Some of it is obviously of extremely high quality, with beautiful mouldings, and other parts look rustic and low grade. It has obviously changed its status a great deal over the centuries.

As Flyfisher and others have remarked, the vandalism appears to have been perpetrated a considerable time ago. If there was going to be any consequential movement I can't help thinking that it would have occurred by now. These old timber frame structures are astonishingly resilient, and seem to be able to withstand generations of hacking about without giving up the ghost! If you want evidence of that, just take a stroll around the streets of Lavenham and look at the crazy angles of many of the buildings there.

Bildeston is in a really lovely area. The village itself is very beautiful (as you'll have seen), with a strong community spirit. As well as Lavenham, nearby you have Chelsworth (we used to get great food at The Peacock Inn), Hadleigh, a real gem, Boxford, Monks Eleigh... the list of beautiful villages is endless. Wattisham air base is also quite nearby. It's not a fixed-wing base any more but I think there are one of two helicopter units based there. I don't know how much noise nuisance this causes in Bildeston.

Best of luck with this purchase. Do let us know how you get on.

PS: Decades ago Bildeston used to have a builder & undertaker called Mr Death! Honestly! If I remember correctly, his premises were on the corner of the Ipswich Road, where there's now a modern house painted yellow.

 

[88v8]

'Some modernisation neede'... make my blood boil when agents write that about lovely old houses that want nothing of the sort. Amazing though, that someone who would paint a room orange has not (visibly) inflicted crassness elsewhere. Even as it is, it has a lovely atmosphere.

The outthrust of the roof at the front, would manifest at the junction of 'your' house and what is now next-door. Any signs?
I see 'they' have what would have been the main chimney stack, almost certainly there's some roof tie-in to the stack that's providing some resistance.
Was the house a U plan? If so, at the back, the return of their main wing which is, what, 8ft away?, may also be providing some support.
Or, perhaps some bridging support has been added in the neighbour's loft, bedroom. Knock on the door and ask to see.

Don't readily see how it could be fixed without major work... perhaps the easiest way would be pommels and stainless straining wires hidden in the thickness of the former doorway. Or perhaps the former door frame is itself sufficiently robust to be providing the tensile restraint.

Ivor

 

[Bayliss]

I know that house quite well, Bayliss (externally). We used to live near Bildeston - once in Elmsett and once in Edwardstone, and I often noticed its very distinctive curved dragon post on the jettied corner.

The timber frame looks very interesting. Some of it is obviously of extremely high quality, with beautiful mouldings, and other parts look rustic and low grade. It has obviously changed its status a great deal over the centuries.

As Flyfisher and others have remarked, the vandalism appears to have been perpetrated a considerable time ago. If there was going to be any consequential movement I can't help thinking that it would have occurred by now. These old timber frame structures are astonishingly resilient, and seem to be able to withstand generations of hacking about without giving up the ghost! If you want evidence of that, just take a stroll around the streets of Lavenham and look at the crazy angles of many of the buildings there.

Bildeston is in a really lovely area. The village itself is very beautiful (as you'll have seen), with a strong community spirit. As well as Lavenham, nearby you have Chelsworth (we used to get great food at The Peacock Inn), Hadleigh, a real gem, Boxford, Monks Eleigh... the list of beautiful villages is endless. Wattisham air base is also quite nearby. It's not a fixed-wing base any more but I think there are one of two helicopter units based there. I don't know how much noise nuisance this causes in Bildeston.

Best of luck with this purchase. Do let us know how you get on.

PS: Decades ago Bildeston used to have a builder & undertaker called Mr Death! Honestly! If I remember correctly, his premises were on the corner of the Ipswich Road, where there's now a modern house painted yellow.

Thanks Penners, invaluable information. We looked up the Bildeston Parish Council website which is full of information but cannot convey that so important 'feels right' friendly atmosphere so important in a village. Its not often a house of this style comes to market at a sensible price(by todays standards) and less so such an interesting building. The Wattisham airfield should not be too much of a problem, a helicopter flew over the village whilst we were having a walk around. Its height was reassuring with low noise level. Our son works in the airbase as well as others under the MOD.
I will post up if/when we purchase. Fingers crossed.

 

[Bayliss]

'Some modernisation neede'... make my blood boil when agents write that about lovely old houses that want nothing of the sort. Amazing though, that someone who would paint a room orange has not (visibly) inflicted crassness elsewhere. Even as it is, it has a lovely atmosphere.

The outthrust of the roof at the front, would manifest at the junction of 'your' house and what is now next-door. Any signs?
I see 'they' have what would have been the main chimney stack, almost certainly there's some roof tie-in to the stack that's providing some resistance.
Was the house a U plan? If so, at the back, the return of their main wing which is, what, 8ft away?, may also be providing some support.
Or, perhaps some bridging support has been added in the neighbour's loft, bedroom. Knock on the door and ask to see.

Don't readily see how it could be fixed without major work... perhaps the easiest way would be pommels and stainless straining wires hidden in the thickness of the former doorway. Or perhaps the former door frame is itself sufficiently robust to be providing the tensile restraint.

Ivor

Thank you Ivor for interesting information. Yes I will have a chat with the adjoining neighbour (if/when contracts exchanged) and discuss the tie beam situation with them. As you mention along with others there seems to be no obvious distress showing in the building regarding the tie beam problem, I think your suggestion of stainless restrainers will be well worth further investigation. The room also features the most wonderful oak floorboards. They are fantastically polished by centuries of being walked upon and must be about 16 inches wide. Another issue is the internal doors have all been replaced by a selection of doors ranging in age from the 1930's to 1970's just one door remains that has some age to it. Obviously being listed we would need to consult the Council regarding the replacement of these doors. I would imagine new oak bespoke doors would need to be made in a style to be agreed. (broad panel with iron door furniture?)
We are going to be so disappointed if we are unable to purchase!