Talk to me about leaky chimneys...please

[Ixia]

We opened up our fireplace early this year, had it swept and checked - all was fine. We used it for 3mths with a homemade fire basket (pending us finding the perfect cast iron fire :roll: ), until one day the neighbours complained that they had smoke coming from between the floorboards in their spare bedroom. DH had been burning a lot of paperwork that day.

The house is a Victorian terrace, we don't share any chimneys with next door. We finally have someone coming to look at it (after months of no shows, no returned calls etc), what's the likely outcome and will it be expensive?

 

[Merlin]

From what you have described I have several thoughts.

Have you had much loose matter falling down the chimney, such as pointing, lumps of soot etc?
Can you look up the chimney and assess the pointing internally? (Maybe use a camera on a pole to get some pictures.)
Has anything built a nest on/in your chimney?
Have you carried out a smoke test?
You say you don't share a chimney with the neighbours, but do they have a stack mirroring yours?
When was it swept and checked and when did you start using it? (Which seasons)

Lots of questions, not many answers, but hopefully these thoughts may trigger some better responses.

M

 

[Ixia]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

1. No loose stuff falling.

2. We can't access the pointing higher up, the fireplace is on the ground floor, could prob get a photo - we actually photographed up the chimney (through the air brick), before we knocked through, so we could see where the lintel was.

3. No nest, we have a cage thingdy that the chimney sweep fitted.

4. Smoke test is fine, no smoke through to next door. Chimney pulls really well.

5. No, their stack is on the other side of their house.

6. We started using it in Jan, it was swept and checked just before we used it. Chimney sweep said the chimney/ stonework (it's Manx stone, with a brick and metal lintel) was in good condition. It started leaking at the beginning of April, only happened once - but the neighbours were really stressed about it (neighbour said her kids had been ill and she was blaming the fumes, which she said had probably been seeping through un-noticed) and we haven't lit it since. It's a bit difficult as the neighbours weren't happy that we weren't going to fit a flue, when we first opened up the fireplace.

7

 

[Gervase]

A liner is probably going to be the best option.
Originally the flue would have been gas-tight, but in time the acid smoke degrades the mortar and bricks settle, allowing cracks to appear which leads to leaks. Just because your neighbours have a stack on the other side of the house doesn't mean to say that they didn't also once share the stack on your side as well, and it's also likely that any mid-feathers - the brick or stone dividers between your flue and your neighbours - are damaged or degraded. That is a very common cause of leakage.
Be aware that as well as smoke, it's likely the the flues are carrying carbon monoxide, and this can be deadly.
Don't light a fire until the flue is sorted.
Liners can be cast in situ using refractory cement and vermiculite around a balloon core, built from ceramic segments by removing bricks at intervals in the stack or fitted from the top. The most cost-effective measure is likely to be a flexible stainless steel liner fitted from the top. A 904 grade liner (with 25-year guarantee) costs around £30 a metre and, with fittings and instalation (using scaffolding or a cherry-picker if there is no direct access to the top of the chimney) you're looking at £800 to £1100 per flue, depending where you live.

 

[Ixia]

Thanks. The price will be at the top of the price scale, bearing in mind we are on the Isle of Man and things are expensive here. I'm pretty sure there was no shared chimney, our house is higher and the top part of the chimney isn't connected to theirs in any way. There's only room for four chimney pots on the stack and all of them are ours + their ajoining bits are mainly hallway, stairs, box room and kitchen (which has it's own chimney stack)

How does a stainless steel liner work (connect) with a Victorian fire, we fitted one when we had a Rayburn, but that had a round flue to attach up.

Oh and don't worry I had no intention of lighting it, until it's sorted.

 

[Ixia]

Well, the chimney man came yesterday - which was a result in itself . Unfortunatley it's going to need a flue, but the chimney won't take the size of flue recommended by building regulations for an open fire and they may insist that we install a stove with the smaller sized flue. He's going to speak to the building inspector today (which in Manx speak, will be sometime next week), so we'll see.

I'm a bit gutted, I know stoves are more efficient, eco friendly, sensible etc....But, I really wanted a cast iron open fireplace in keeping with house. Plus I don't like the look of stoves and hated cleaning the one in a house we rented.

Oh, and flue will be £100m fitted, we need approx 12m.

 

[robgil]

there is no legal requirement to fit a flue liner for an open fire you know.
why cant you just have it re-pointed?

 

[Ixia]

The neighbours have asked that we fit a flue.....bit of a difficult situation really and it's the only option according to chimney guy. It's difficult to get stuff done here, I've been stood up by the only other chimney specialist on the island and could only get one builder to consider looking at it and he didn't show up either.

Tell me about repointing though. How on earth would would we repoint the inside of a chimney, considering this is the type of space that small children would be sent up? I have a 5yr old, but doubt her ability with lime mortar :wink: Or if it's the outside that you repoint, we wouldn't be able to do the neighbours side? :?

 

[Penners]

Oh, and flue will be £100m fitted

That expensive!!! I hope you're married to Roman Abramovitch! :wink:

It's a shame that you can't have your open fire, but I'm sure you'll get used to (and love) a nice stove. The variety of designs available, nowadays, is enormous, so you're not limited to the traditional Victorian-looking style.

Traditional designs: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Woodburning-Stoves-and-Multifuel-Stoves.html

Contemporary designs: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/contemporary-designer-stoves.html

By the way, I know nothing about the above company - they just happen to have a good selection of photos!

 

[robgil]

it sounds like your neighbours dont want to repoint their side of the wall.
i dont know who is responsible for a party wall in these circumstances but you should find out and tell your neighbours that you cannot fit a liner, the chimney guy said so.

 

[Ixia]

Penners - Sorry,that should have read £100 per metre - but you knew that Still adds up to a pretty penny.
Thanks for the links, I've been looking at inset stoves, which are a bit different and might be a compromise.

Robgil - Ah, you mean repointing the exterior of the chimney - lightbulb moment There's no way the neighbours would go for it, it would be our tough luck. I doubt we would have any legal leverage as there is an alternative solution.

 

[robgil]

but there is no alternative solution apart from not lighting your fire or fitting a flue at great expense , simply because they wont repair their house. does smoke leak into your house?
its a difficult one but if it were me i would be chasing every possible solution, it might not seem like a nice thing to do to your neighbours but if the onus is upon them to sort their side of the wall out then its not very nice of them to tell you that you cant light fires and to fork out over a thousand pounds to fit a flue and give up your right to an open fire in your own home.
i am no expert though which is why i would be seeking professional legal advice just to know exactly where i stood,i would be worried that if i showed to claim responsibility for their side of the wall it might not end there.
does anyone here know about party walls?

 

[Ixia]

Robgil - That's a really interesting point. I hadn't thought beyond the fact that it was our chimney and our fire, but you are right - the problem is with their side of the wall. Also the fact that the smoke came from under the floorboards probably means it's just the small part of the chimney between the ceiling and floor, which wouldn't have been plastered that would need repointing.

DH and I have been mulling it over all night, no solution reached though. He feels that if it was an issue such as damp, then he'd definitely make a point of making the neighbours pay. But as we are dealing with potentially deadly fumes, then it's just not worth the risk.

The chimney guy called back. He can only fit a 6" inch flue, building inspector says it must be connected to a stove or conventional fire- but not an open fire with a basket as we have now. Apparently the opening is too big for that size of flue. So I can have my Victorian fire at least, but it's such a hassle as we haven't found a cast iron fire yet, the chimney guy doesn't fit fireplaces and I'm not confident that I can get the right size fire for the flue. It would be so much easier to have the chimney repointed and go on as we are for now.

The money the flue would cost is the money I have saved for my solar panel ...grrr.

 

[Tom]

I have to agree that, if the problem is with your neighbours part of the wall, then they should be the ones sorting it out. You're being prevented from enjoying and using your home as you should be able to because of a problem caused by someone else. I say caused because, although they haven't deliberately made the holes for the smoke to go through, they're clearly not doing anything about it either. Can you talk to your neighbours and get them to understand that it's their wall that's leaking, not yours? It's a bit like them asking you not to use your toilet because theirs is backing up!!

 

[Onetap]

I have to agree that, if the problem is with your neighbours part of the wall, then they should be the ones sorting it out. You're being prevented from enjoying and using your home as you should be able to because of a problem caused by someone else.

I disagree with that. The chimney leaks and IMHO it is the responsibility of the owner of the fire to contain the products of combustion within their property. Although the wall on the neighbour's side of the boundary line does leak, it is adequate for their purposes, holding up the roof. Their leaking wall would not be a problem if the wall on your side was gas-tight and contained the combustion gases on your side of the boundary.

If the leak is at one point (e.g. a brick dislodged by nailing a skirting board to the wall) you could break into the flue and repair it at that point. You'd need a CCTV survey to identify whether that is the problem or whether it is all-round degradation of the chimney mortar.

 

[Flyfisher]

I thought party walls were the joint and total responsibility of the shared owners and cannot be divided along some imaginary line.

I would disagree that a leaking party wall is adequate for it's purpose. Yes, part of it's purpose is structural, for which it would seem adequate, but since it also forms part of a chimney then surely another part of its purpose is to contain any flue gases. The fact that it has failed to do so has compromised the amenity value of the other joint owner of the wall. This is always a problem when two people have a shared liability but a different perspective on matters, but I see it as a faulty wall for which both parties are equally responsible, no matter where the physical problem lies.

But I'm not a lawyer.

I do think, however, that regardless of the wall issues, the OP now knows of the problem and the potential dangers so the onus is upon them to not have anymore fires until the problem is resolved.

 

[Ixia]

Thank you for all the replies, plenty of things to think about, but I think we've pretty much decided to go with a flue, despite the breathtaking cost. I just hope it works OK when it's fitted.

Flyfisher - It's OK, I wouldn't dream of using the fire until the issue is resolved.

 

[Lime]

If fumes are seeping into next door when the wind changes it is likely your house will get fumes in it as well.
Far too dangerous to ignore but next to impossible to repair the brickwork.
the only solution is to use a flue lining.
Make sure it is double-skinned and a high temperature one suitable for solid fuel.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Agree with previous comments. We really wanted an open fire, but the smoke fumes were leaking into the bedroom above our sitting room ( where our kids sleep !). We went down the re-pointing route to no avail. It just didn't work and we couldn't take the risk so in the end we went for a flexible liner and a stove and to be honest haven't looked back. The stove is every bit as good as an open fire and more.

 

[citizensmith]

Agreed with above. Get it properly lined and consider a wood burner, you wont regret it.