Survey or no survey?

[Kristienv]

hi all
we've just had an offer accepted on a Grade II listed thatched cottage in need of complete refurbishment. It's not quite derelict but just about habitable. The extent of refurbishment required is quite obvious (the usual damp problems, no heating, part of the sole plate is exposed and needs replacing, leaking roof in 60ies flat-roof extension, lime plaster repairs needed etc.).

I was just curious to hear the forum's collective views on whether, under these circumstances, you would still have a structural survey done? Even if we get it done by someone with expertise in period buildings, I am anticipating it would just state the obvious and we'll have wasted £1000 that could have been spent on the building itself. Does anyone beg to differ?

We absolutely adore the house, have a reasonable idea of what we're taking on, and any defects highlighted in the survey are unlikely to put us off wanting to buy it. We are also not the sort of people who will use survey findings to try and haggle on the agreed purchase price (as said, it's quite obvious it's a money pit!) plus the vendor had three offers on the table so if we start being difficult I'm sure he'll just sell it to the next in line!

In summary, I would be grateful for your thoughts on the merits (or otherwise) of structural surveys when buying an old cottage in obvious need of refurbishment.

many thanks,
Kristien

 

[Keithj]

A well-done and thorough survey (such as the one we had) will tell you in detail what needs to be done, and what should be priority. I don't think I'd have known, but the surveyor did and the CO and the builders who did the repair work thought the same.

In fact, now that it's done and the "mopping up" and shrinkage-gap-filling is just about complete, I'm contemplating getting him to come back and tell us if there's anything we've missed/anything that needs doing.

 

[TheForge]

I would tend to agree with what you've said, given the state of the property the point of a survey may seem limited. However if you choose a genuinely experienced 'expert' in old properties their findings could form the basis of your schedule of works and help in prioritising what to take on first. They may also highlight areas requiring urgent attention that you might otherwise miss.

Don't just assume that a surveyor claiming to specialise in old buildings will actually know their stuff either. Do plenty of research, perhaps contact SPAB, to find some one with a good reputation and real experience.

Also, assuming you will have a mortgage on the property, the written report from a specialist in the field may assist you to avoid silly covenants that may be made by the mortgage companies surveyor (injected damp proofing, tanking etc).

 

[skier-hughes]

Agree with the above, but of course a lot will depend on how much you are spending and how much you can afford to lose if it does all go pear shaped!

 

[xanthe]

I would still get a survey done - using a really good specialist in that kind of property not just a 'common or garden' surveyor.

They may well find things that you aren't aware of, can also advise on what looks terrible but isn't actually a real issue, tell you whether problems are historic or not (movement, beetles etc) and so on.

It also gives you a nice drawn up list of problems which can be useful when talking to the local CO.

Our surveyor was worth every penny - and I've called him a few times since to get advice on a few things.

 

[tobydog]

I paid £750 for a full structural survey on our timber framed thatched cottage. What I actually received was a few pages stating the bleeding obvious. Everything that the surveyor couldn't see was covered from head to toe in presumptions and susequent caveats. We got into a dispute over some issues and I ended up getting my fee back. We were new to old properties so lessons learned.

The problem is that unless the current owner is going to allow your surveyor to carry out invasive assessment, you could find yourself in the same position. We found that it's what you can't see that you need to be worried about and not what's staring you in the face. Even with the benefit of hindsight I would still employ a surveyor again because £750 - £1,000 is small change in the overall scheme of things and, as others have said here, can have it's additional benefits. If you are allowed to go round the property with the surveyor or, even better, have a good chat with him off the record later, that's £1,000 of well spent consultancy fees!

 

[xanthe]

For an old property, I wouldn't be happy about using a surveyor who didn't want me there (my parents had one of those).

Mine cost £900 and we spent over 3 hours in the property - C16th timber-framed 3-bed cottage with a cellar. He was as confused as I was with the structure and spent the first hour trying to work the place out - turns out that there was a missing 3rd bay that must have been pulled down sometime in the C18th or so. I got to see lots of interesting things that I would never have known to look for.

The report was 85 pages and another 50 separate pages of photographs with comments.

 

[88v8]

Yes to survey, if you can find a suitable surveyor.
Without fail, be there when the survey is done. He will show you so much more than will appear in the report. And there is always a gulf between what a surveyor is prepared to say, and what they are prepared to write down. Be there.

Speaking as someone who never wanted to live in a listed or thatched property, but is, be careful what you wish for

Ivor

 

[livias]

First house ... Victorian terrace in need of repair, I had a Building Society survey cos the mortgage wanted it. I also read a book for trainee surveyors and went round the house with a crib sheet that I extracted from it. That was fine for a Victorian terrace and my limited but not non existent experience

Second house ... Mediaeval Hall house in need of extensive repair, I was more experienced in understanding old buildings by this stage and was able to do reasonable costings for the repairs required but I was not very experienced with timber frames so got a good conservation builder mate to give it the once over. This was a good idea, if only because he was not so emotionally attached as I was. This plan does depend on knowing a good conservation builder or similar that you trust. I didn't get a proper survey cos like you I thought they would state the bleeding obvious

Third house ... I am now an old hand at understanding the issues. The house came with a five year old survey which was part of an earlier planning application and done by a conservation surveyor. I was relieved to see that it didn't highlight anything that I had missed on first viewing and I had no other surveys done. I do think that if I had not had that document then I would have got some other independent person to look it over, not necessarily a surveyor but it would give me reassurance that I had not missed anything important (ie expensive!)

 

[Flyfisher]

Without fail, be there when the survey is done. He will show you so much more than will appear in the report. And there is always a gulf between what a surveyor is prepared to say, and what they are prepared to write down. Be there.

Yes, absolutely yes!

 

[Zebra]

Mine is very amateur advice. However.... I don't like to look too much before I leap, or I'll find I won't leap at all. I didn't have a survey done when I bought this place. I simply did a quick calculation in my head - suppose all the timber is rotten, and the roof needs doing, and the render...... I can see it needs the windows and doors replacing, and has damp, and needs a complete internal refurb... How much will all that cost? Is it worth that plus the sale price?
It very much was, and is.
I don't regret not having a survey, even though the remedial works I've had to do include things I never imagined I would have to do. And of course I've probably spent more than the quick sum I totted up in my head. But given the state of this house, I don't think a surveyor would have been able to tell me much that I couldn't already see for myself. Or at least, I could see that you couldn't see. And if they had told me the things that I didn't see, would I have not bought it? I'd have been missing out.
You say that you love the house and are prepared for what you are taking on, so if you think the sale price is fair given the state of it, you could perhaps wait until you have bought it, have a good poke about, and then in time, when you understand what the problems are, get expert help.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

If you are using a conservation accredited surveyor then you should be able to meet with him/her on site for part of the time they are conducting the survey. They generally like about an hour on their own and are then usually very happy to spend time going around with you.

 

[LadyArowana]

If you have a surveyor who is very experienced with this type of property and you can be there when he does the site visit to discuss things with him then it might be worth the money. Otherwise you may well not feel you have had value for money. Where abouts in the country are you?

 

[Kristienv]

hi everyone,
Thanks so much for all your thoughtful responses!
Seems like most of you would still go for a survey with the right surveyor, so I've been persuaded it's probably a good idea if only to get an itemised list of 'problems' and priorities. Would definitely be there when the survey is done; did that with our current house too (also a project, albeit not quite on the scale of the one in the pipeline). I do like Zebra's take on things though, which is similar in our case only that I do like to have a good look but then leap anyway! :roll:

I've already had a suggestion for a competent surveyor in our area via PM (thanks, Keith!) but if any of you kind people can recommend a few others I'd be glad to hear it. We are in Suffolk, Bury St Edmunds area.

Thanks again.

 

[Keith Bowman]

My understanding (and experience in the Drome) is that the profession of 'surveyor' is virtually unknown in France - if you are uncertain about a house you are buying, you get a competent builder to look at it. If you want a really competent builder near Bury St Edmunds with experience of listed timber buildings then I can thoroughly recommend John W Younger of Woodhall Business Park, Sudbury, CO10 1WH - tel 01787 372458. He has recently worked on our 15C listed house in south west Suffolk. Give him a ring.