Survey on stone cottage - thoughts?

[Gazza]

I've been recommended asking on here to get some proper common sense answers, so here goes,

Me and the Mrs have set our sights on our dream home it's awesome and pretty much a 'forever property'.

The house was restored around a decade ago, the house was pretty much a shell and the work done is a very good standard.

The house shows damp readings of the following (all results in WME)

Main walls <15%

Under stairs 25%

Hallway aperture 25%

Bathroom 35% - reason traced to water coming down an open chimney that's never been used

Utility 70% - traced to a leaking washing machine drain, now sorted and an extractor also installed

It says that the reason for the damp is indicative of DPC failure or omission - I would imagine a self built estate house from 1805 would not have a DPC but original construction would allow the property to breath. There are three fireplaces each with a chimney in the property, the stone walls are 18" thick, it has a pan tile roof. The floors are fairly level with the outside ground.

The dining room has never been used nor decorated for a decade and there is a very small piece of black mould in the bottom corner of the wall, that was all I could find on inspection today.

The report also details that we should do more to prevent condensation this includes upgrading the extraction and potentially upgrading the windows - currently single glazed wooden sash type to keep to the grade two listing of the property.

I'm unsure how much can be done? Or needs to be done tbh, the previous owner to the ones now got in bother just for altering the fence and the house also has an English heritage plaque on it but I haven't looked into that yet.

The report finishes with it saying they would get a damp specialist in and get them to quote for remedial works but reading up it sounds like there's not a lot you can do anyway. My dad is a builder and says in no way shape or form get a damp proof course injected.

Just wondered what people's thoughts are, perhaps you've got a similar constructed property? As it stands I dont find it off putting, I'm aware it won't be perfect and will require upkeep but I cannot visibly see any issues except for the very small bit in the dining room.

I have no idea what's behind the wall coverings internally, the current owner mentioned tanking, the walls are artex coated to which all but two have been flattened and plastered over smooth. The two rooms with condensation / minor damp marks are the two rooms that are never used.

The report was a bank one in order to get a mortgage but I'm thinking they're no good and would like to have a proper survey by someone who knows what's what, my second question would be is there anyone in North lincs who is recommended?

Many thanks,

 

[plasticpigeon]

Sounds exciting. Have you got pictures? I think your dad is a wise man. It is pretty much universal opinion here that injected DPCs are fraud, and serve only to damage the integrity of the base of the walls. The damp specialist, unless very conervation minded will most likely just recommend the same one size fits all nonsense solution, as specialist is more often than not a euphemism for salesperson, so i wouldn't bother. When buying my house which is about 100 years younger than yours, the mortgage company decided to withold some funds until I got remedial works done. I elected to just pay the value of the retainer as extra deposit, which for some crazy reason was acceptable, and pretty much proved to me that even the lender didn't consider works necessary, it was just some kind of endmic fraud!

 

[Ebenezer]

If you intend on getting a damp specialist survey done make sure they are independent and specialise or are suitably experienced in period properties. The surveyor we used although not specialist in older properties seemed to know his stuff thankfully and stated that the high damp meter readings were in line with what he would expect for a house of that age with no DPC. Thankfully the mortgage company were happy with it, just.

 

[TheRoost]

Sounds an interesting building. The damp readings are almost meaningless because damp meters can't measure moisture content in stone/brick/plaster. They will also give 'high' readings where salts are present or where there is condensation from kitchens/bathrooms/clothes drying etc.

I'd be asking if the tanking/artexing was done ten years ago, or more recently, is it sound or trapping moisture?

As plasticpigeon says, the biggest hurdle might be getting the bank to be sensible about it, if they demand silly damp proofing works you might have to find a surveyor who understands old buildings, and can get the bank to see sense/ignore the basic survey.

 

[xanthe]

Sounds like a great property - pictures? V envious of your 18" walls!

I would suggest getting a specialist surveyor to come and do a proper survey. Having had a long chat with the nice chap at SPAB on their free technical advice line yesterday, I came away with a long list of expert builders/surveyors/structural engineers in my area that are sympathetic to old buildings - they might be able to suggest similar for your area.

My very non-expert feeling would be that ripping out the tanking/artex and anything else non-breathable, looking for any possible penetrating damp issues (gutters, flues etc) and making sure there's plenty of ventilation may well solve the problems.

We're in the final stages of buying a C16th property and the money spent on the survey was well worth it, as was meeting the local Conservation Officer who came out to look round the house for me as we may need some urgent repairs.

If you are listed (you can look it up online), I would advise getting in touch with your local one especially if you need to do work to the property - some are very knowledgeable about old buildings, some less so, but they will be approving (or not) anything you want to do. Given the former owner got in trouble over the fence, it sounds like the department are strict.

You want to make sure that any works (inside or out) have Listed Building Consent as it's the current owner, not the one who did the work, who gets in trouble for anything that was done without. We have work done that doesn't have permission, but the CO verbally assured me that they won't press for action which was a big relief.

 

[Owain]

The dining room has never been used nor decorated for a decade and there is a very small piece of black mould in the bottom corner of the wall, that was all I could find on inspection today. .... The two rooms with condensation / minor damp marks are the two rooms that are never used.

They probably haven't been heated or ventilated then.

Is the under-stairs 'damp' also in a cold unventilated cupboard?

The floors are fairly level with the outside ground.

Dry ground or damp ground?

If damp ground dig a trench round the house far enough away to not upset the foundation (or bottom layer of stones) and put a drain in.

 

[Penners]

I've been recommended asking on here to get some proper common sense answers

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Who told you that?!

Sorry - I'm just being flippant. There are lots of very experienced property renovators on this forum. The majority, like myself, are amateurs who have had experience of DIY renovating one or more period properties, but we also have some knowledgeable professionals who kindly give their advice free of charge here.

Anyway, for what they're worth, here are my amateur views:-

Your damp readings (while unlikely to be definitively reliable) paint a picture of a house suffering from leaks and condensation, as much as anything. A reading of 15% in the main walls would not get me worried, and the other, higher readings all look understandable for condensation in enclosed or wet areas of the house.

It is pretty much universal opinion here that injected DPCs are fraud

I don't entirely agree with PP's statement above - an injected dpc can be helpful in some circumstances. However, this treatment is often recommended as a knee-jerk diagnosis by damp-proofing "specialists" who have more of an eye to their own profits than to the needs of the building.

In your shoes, here's what I would do:-

* Hack off any damp plaster and/or Artex from the walls. This will give you a true picture of what has and has not been tanked. I should leave the tanking for the time being.

* Look for and rectify any other possible external sources of damp in the walls - particularly things like failed pointing, concrete paths abutting walls, ill-functioning gutters and downpipes... and so on. Try to lower exterior soil levels to several inches below floor level, ensuring that you don't dig down any lower than the bottom of the subsoil brickwork.

* Cap the open chimney (ensuring that you use a ventilated cap).

* Open up any "dead air" areas inside the house, like the understairs cupboard and the hallway aperture (whatever that is). Leave them open for as long as you are drying out the building.

* Heat and ventilate the house. Heating will help to dissipate moisture and ventilation will carry away the saturated warm air. Unfortunately, winter is not the best time to do this, and it will probably push up your heating bills a bit, but you will reap the rewards in the long-term.

* Fit run-on type extractor fans to any wet rooms - toilet, kitchen, bathroom(s), etc. For the latter two, it might be best to fit humidistat-controlled fans.

* Don't contemplate any damp treatments until the end of next summer. Damp in masonry can take many months to dissipate, particularly in winter, and you won't get a realistic idea of how effective the above procedures have been until then. So, around next September time, get some damp readings taken once again. Remember that they are only a poor guide to the true state of the building's dampness, but at least you can compare them with your previous readings and get a general feeling for the efficacy of what you have done. Just as much as the damp readings, trust your own feelings about the dampness - run your hands over walls, and just "feel" the atmosphere in the building. On any tanked walls, take readings on the tanking and just above it, for comparison purposes.

This may all seem a long and tedious business, but there's a good chance that it will leave you with a house that's acceptably dry and in no need whatsoever of expensive/un-necessary damp-proofing treatments. Solving damp problems is rarely quick - it's a step-by-step-then-wait-and-see process.

Good luck, and keep us informed.

 

[Gazza]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice people, i need to find someone now who understands the type of property and can give a sensible report on the damp situation.

 

[Woody3]

I've been recommended asking on here to get some proper common sense answers

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Who told you that?!

T'was I :lol:

 

[MatthewC]

Hi Gazza

Here are my views, having restored a damp stone house built about 170 years ago (see my blog by clicking on the blue spot on the right):

The house was restored around a decade ago, the house was pretty much a shell and the work done is a very good standard.

Possibly a good standard, but it was the wrong one as they were working to modern standards (as seen on so many TV programmes!) which are just plain incompatible with lime mortar and stone walls.

It says that the reason for the damp is indicative of DPC failure or omission - I would imagine a self built estate house from 1805 would not have a DPC but original construction would allow the property to breath. There are three fireplaces each with a chimney in the property, the stone walls are 18" thick, it has a pan tile roof. The floors are fairly level with the outside ground.

You're right: there never was a DPC and the house should be allowed to breathe; I think Penners is misleading ("an injected dpc can be helpful in some circumstances") as although the "some" could be true, it's not true for your (lime?) stone building. The ground level sounds a problem as dampness transmits directly to your floors.

The dining room has never been used nor decorated for a decade and there is a very small piece of black mould in the bottom corner of the wall, that was all I could find on inspection today.

The report also details that we should do more to prevent condensation this includes upgrading the extraction and potentially upgrading the windows - currently single glazed wooden sash type to keep to the grade two listing of the property.

I suggest acrylic secondary glazing as a pretty cheap and quite effective but reversible way of sorting the windows. Condensation is down to lack of ventilation, which people usually eliminate as they like to live in a warm house in just T-shirts even in winter. We have a rule in this house that you can't complain of the cold unless you are wearing a jumper - and it also saves a lot of heating bills as well as sorting any condensation.

My dad is a builder and says in no way shape or form get a damp proof course injected.

You dad is spot on, and is clearly one of the very few builders these days who understand old buildings!

I have no idea what's behind the wall coverings internally, the current owner mentioned tanking, the walls are artex coated to which all but two have been flattened and plastered over smooth. The two rooms with condensation / minor damp marks are the two rooms that are never used.

As above, they have used modern materials and tried to impose a modern standard on an old building, but the two just do not mix. Your challenge is to try to reverse as much as you can of the latest "renovation"!

Where are you in the UK? Could you add this to your details please? If you're close to Oxfordshire/Buckinghamshuire I'd love to come and see your house.

And finally - photos please!!

Matthew

 

[livias]

Following up on the secondary glazing comment ...

I have just bought magnetic strip and acrylic panel double glazing for the whole house which is about 30 windows and it cost under 1000 pounds. I am very pleased and now hope that this winter will be cosier than I had thought

Anna

 

[Penners]

I think Penners is misleading ("an injected dpc can be helpful in some circumstances") as although the "some" could be true, it's not true for your (lime?) stone building.

Matthew, I certainly did not and would not advocate an injected dpc for Gazza's property. My comment was a response to plasticpigeon's suggestion that this forum has a universal view that "injected DPCs are fraud". Indeed, my view is that an injected dpc in a stone building of Gazza's type is almost certainly a waste of time and money, given the probability of large, dross-filled voids in the core of the thick walls.

 

[plasticpigeon]

In what circumstance would an injected damp course be a good idea?

 

[Penners]

We have some friends who live in a Victorian cottage with solid brick walls. The house was extremely damp until they had a dpc injected (in both sides of the walls) about 8 years ago. The process has, they say, made a very significant improvement to the damp problem.

So, in my view, an injected dpc can be helpful in circumstances where the entire thickness of a suitable brick wall can be thoroughly saturated with the barrier fluid. I use the word "suitable" because I suspect that the permeability of the brick is probably also a factor - very permeable bricks are likely to get damp more easily, but I reckon they will also saturate more effectively with the barrier fluid.

These are amateur musings.

 

[Mickey]

Really don't want to hijack the thread but Livias I'd be really interested to know which company you used for your magnetic secondary glazing, our house could really benefit there has been much window vacuming already! Happy if you'd rather PM the details.

Whilst on the subject of damp, our place was entirely dry lined by the cowboy who converted it and we did not have any really alarming meter readings as part of a full structural survey only to discover that our bedroom walls were saturated to the point they could take no more and eventually ended up with water coming through the walls. I'd not be too alarmed but if you are intending to hack off any gypsum plaster to replace with lime I'd try to get an idea of the costings before you purchase so you know where you are budget wise because it does cost alot more but is definitely the way to go. Wish I had time/skills to have a go myself.

Good luck with it.

Mickey

 

[Gazza]

I've got a guy calling me tonight to arrange an independent inspection, he's an expert on houses of this age so I should get a better idea of what's going on after that.

 

[livias]

Hi Mickey

The magnetic strip to stick to the acrylic plus the steel strip to stick to the window frame came from here

http://www.indigo.co/Item/magnetic-diy-secondary-glazing-kit

As we are planning to revamp all the windows in a year or so, I bought double quantities of steel strip so I can throw that part away and start again. As an aside, if you ever need a magnet then Indigo probably sell it. A fascinating catalogue. I bought secondary glazing kits from them for my last house and they were excellent so no reason to go anywhere else

Acrylic panels 2mm clear cut to size were a trickier buy. I produced a spreadsheet of dimensions and emailed it to a couple of suppliers. In return I got one quote at 1600 pounds and another at 600 pounds. Asked the 1600 people why they were so much more expensive and never got a reply so went with the 600 quote. Which seems to be going OK except that they are issuing pro forma invoices and stuff so I expect that they do not usually sell to the general public. The panels have not arrived yet

http://www.gjplastics.co.uk/

HTH
Anna

 

[Matt Green]

In what circumstance would an injected damp course be a good idea?

After 5 years in my previous job, the company, who undertook 3-5 surveys on period properties each week, recommended a total of two chemical DPCs. One was for a boys boarding school dorm where lime or lined anything would be kicked to death (great survey that one, porn everywhere- the bursar was ready to explode by the end), the other was uphill of a very derelict property with no access to the problem. Both in brick: injected DPCs in stone walls are optimistic at best.

It's the cement plaster that really does the damp-proofing in ensuring no damage to internal decorations in these situations.

 

[Mickey]

Many thanks Livias much appreciated, I'll investigate although could be tricky since we have wooden windows inserted into mullions but definately worth a try!

cheers
Mickey

 

[Gareth Hughes]

(great survey that one, porn everywhere- the bursar was ready to explode by the end).

there are several interpretations that could be placed on that...