Survey issues re thatched roof and chimney - advice please!

[AndieL]

We've just had the survey completed on the Grade II cottage that we fell in love with and are still hoping to buy. My partner has renovated dilapidated properties in the past, we've both lived in various 'historical treasures' and are aware that buying a listed property is not going to be problem-free.

We put in an offer (cash buyers) which was accepted by the vendors prior to the survey on the basis that they want a 'quick completion'. The survey threw up a lot of problems that we weren't expecting and the vendors unrealistically are still pushing for us to complete within the four week period from the date we made our offer on the property, with their desired date for completion being 11th December...which is, quite frankly, putting us under unnecessary stress. The property is empty and being sold by executors of the now deceased owner so there isn't even the problem of it being sold in a chain.

Two of the many unexpected issues thrown up by the survey are as below.

1. Rafters and roof structure above main bedroom and bathroom needs immediate replacement - death watch beetle damage has caused cracked pole rafters which need replacing. Horizontal bearers and longitudinal beam at ceiling level need to be replaced, the latter by an RSJ (with associated problems of access to roof space). Battens have given way and thatch is in danger of falling into roof space. In much of the roof the horizontal willow battens are thin and worn and should be replaced. Middle roof structure - no access hatch available but is expected to be in similar condition. In one bedroom a cross truss is visible and supported on a window frame, needs replacing or restructuring? The thatch is currently being replaced at the rear of the property, paid for by the vendors due to there being so little interest in the property during the year it has been on the market - we cannot understand why the thatch is being put on top of the cracked poles and worn battens - is this usual practice?! The thatch to the front of the property needs shaving and patch repairs and the ridge over the garage addition needs replacing. Added to this is the issue raised that none of the electrical wiring in the roof space is armour protected so this would also require our attention.

2. Dining room chimney flue is not lined and needs to be, as there are significant tar stains on the chimney stack in the roof space. The register plate is set too low against the bresummer beam with significant tar deposits built up on top of it. The woodburner needs replacing as it is too large for the flue. External ventilation to the fire place is required. The thing that most worried us about the external chimney stack is that it is 1.1 metres high but our surveyor told us it should be 1.8 metres high. All these issues contribute to a high risk of a chimney fire and thatch fire, and he recommends that these issues should be rectified as a matter of urgency. He pointed out that there may be a problem with raising the stack height as it is a listed building in a conservation area.

We knew we'd be sinking a vast amount of time and money into the property but these two sets of issues weren't expected (along with a handful of other 'issues' requiring money and attention). Our surveyor advised us to obtain formal quotes for this work to be carried out plus a specialist wood survey on floors as they may require treatment due to evidence in beams of historic beetle attack prior to going further with legal aspects of the purchase.

Is there anyone here who has dealt with similar problems? Was it as expensive to deal with as it sounds? All advice, stories of experiences, pointers and suchlike would be very gratefully received as I fear my heart is ruling my head and my partner is far more sensible as his head always wins out!

Help!!!

 

[MatthewC]

...the vendors ... want a 'quick completion'... desired date for completion being 11th December... The property is empty and being sold by executors of the now deceased owner so there isn't even the problem of it being sold in a chain.
[snip]
The thatch is currently being replaced at the rear of the property, paid for by the vendors due to there being so little interest in the property during the year it has been on the market

I can't answer your very important questions, but it would worry me that they are putting such pressure on you when the house has been on the market so long. Take your time and be prepared to walk away (or offer a much reduced price) if they won't be more realistic.

 

[Penners]

I entirely agree with Matthew. It seems very obvious that the vendors are pressuring you to complete quickly in order to get the place off their hands before any more problems are uncovered.

I urge you not to let this pressure stress you. How likely are they find another potential purchaser who is likely to complete within the time-frame that they're demanding? I suspect the answer is... not a chance in hell. So you should feel free to proceed at a speed that is reasonable, sensible and - most important of all - that serves your own interests properly. What's more, I think you should make it clear to the vendors that you will not be rushed into buying a property with such a very long list of problems.

Your list of work that the property needs sounds expensive, particularly as it sounds as though you will need much more rethatching work done than is currently in progress. I would earnestly caution you not to proceed with the purchase until you have at least some general idea of what all the necessary work is going to cost. Once you have that figure (and never, ever be tempted to kid yourself with an underestimate - period properties invariably cost considerably more than the initial estimate!), you can then decide (a) whether you can afford it, and (b) whether the property's final "fixed-up" value will give you a return on the investment.

Good luck! Do let us know how you get on.

 

[Feltwell]

I would also agree with all the above. No matter why they're pushing for a quick sale - it maybe due to them wanting the house off their hands before more problems are uncovered or it may be that they need the money for something else - the chances of them having another option other than you sounds very low, so you are in control of timescale *if* you're prepared to take the low risk that they may find another more immediate buyer.

we cannot understand why the thatch is being put on top of the cracked poles and worn battens - is this usual practice?!

I suspect it's being done because it's the cheapest option and hides a visible problem that's been putting people off!

You need to go into this with a realistic estimate of what the costs will be, and if that means delaying the vendor whilst more investigation is done then it's in your power to do so. We negotiated quite hard on this house, set a price then the survey revealed the roof was at the end of it's life. We ended up going halves with the sellers on the cost, as we'd already negotiated the price with some roof repairs in mind. It was a fair deal and we were ultimately both happy with it, even if the seller was disappointed at the survey result.

Bear in mind that surveyors will always give you the worst case. More opinions on what really needs doing with the roof structure would be good to get. As for the stack height, it would be worth contacting the local CO if you can for an informal opinion, some authorities are more accommodating of giving this than others.

Finally, is the thatch at the point where a complete re-thatch would be more economic in the long run, especially if you've work to do to the underlying timbers? The roof here is tiled but that is the point it was at - we could have made repairs but would then be back making more repairs every couple of years, with associated disruption and scaffolding costs. Really it was at the end of it's useful life and starting again was a better option.

 

[elizabeth]

Hi AndeiL

I maybe wrong but from what I have read , and the advice given, iit would be to good to have a realistic quote to completely re-do the roof with new timbers where needed, thatch re-new,armoured cable, raised chimney and liner so the focus is hopefully sound roof and chimney and then you can see if you have the immediate finances or leverage to presuade the vendors to drop price.be less costly in the long run than doing bitty jobs. (Insurance on a listed thatch will be tricky on chimney stack of less than 1.8 m.)

With Death Watch beetle, there is plenty of advice on here for resolving any water ingress, drying out ttimbers with heating and good ventilation besides much more - chemically treating wood can be unnecessary and costly.
We own a thatch listed cob and stone cottage, being here for a few years; we have discovered the survey was accurate in the work required but work needed doing much quicker than expected which was hard and quite stressful. Thankfully you have your experiences of previous properties to help you make a judgement.
Be great to know how you get on, keep us posted if you can.

 

[88v8]

1. Rafters and roof structure above main bedroom and bathroom needs immediate replacement - death watch beetle damage has caused cracked pole rafters which need replacing. Horizontal bearers and longitudinal beam at ceiling level need to be replaced, the latter by an RSJ (with associated problems of access to roof space). Battens have given way and thatch is in danger of falling into roof space. In much of the roof the horizontal willow battens are thin and worn and should be replaced. Middle roof structure - no access hatch available but is expected to be in similar condition. In one bedroom a cross truss is visible and supported on a window frame, needs replacing or restructuring? The thatch is currently being replaced at the rear of the property, paid for by the vendors due to there being so little interest in the property during the year it has been on the market - we cannot understand why the thatch is being put on top of the cracked poles and worn battens - is this usual practice?! The thatch to the front of the property needs shaving and patch repairs and the ridge over the garage addition needs replacing. Added to this is the issue raised that none of the electrical wiring in the roof space is armour protected so this would also require our attention.

Says who?
A specialist old building surveyor or some numpty? RSJ ??... get lost...

In one of our attics, which had no hatch until I made one and became the first person in perhaps 150 years to look up there, the roof 'structure' is a collection of hazel trunks out of the hedgerow. 400 years old, give or take. The worm has been at them, worm loves hazel, and two of the rafters had collapsed, so I propped one up and replaced the other by adding ... another hazel trunk from our garden, one with a suitable bend as per the original.
Then I sprayed 5 gallons of woodworm fluid, and left it be.

The battens had been extensively eaten, many of them had fallen out and, yes, and some of the thatch was falling in, so I cut more hazels, chopped them down the middle and slid them betwixt thatch and rafters to make new battens. Job done.
Oh, and battens don't 'wear' they aren't moving parts.

Horizontal bearers could perhaps be reinforced by bolting something alongside. Steel 2" x quarter would support a lot, while conforming to any existing curves. No RSJs.

Supported on a window frame... so it's a bit of wood supported on another bit of wood. And...?? Provided the window frame is strong enough, that's fine.
Is it a flimsy modern replacement? Replace the window frame, leave the roof alone.

The thing with thatch, it's pretty much self--supporting once it's in place. Just do the minimum, do it yourself, forget RSJs and forget anyone who recommends them.

Ridge replacement is routine, perhaps every 8-10 years. Ours needs doing, next autumn it's booked for.
Thatch put on wonky roof timbers? Sure. Thatch is put on top of thatch, rarely is it all stripped.

You may know... thatch is a rich man's roof. Ours would cost perhaps £35,000 to redo, so over the life we have to put away a notional £2,000 a year to pay for it.

Wiring in metal conduit is a good idea. Ours isn't, I might get around to it one day. So far, the mice prefer our nutbait, or the pipe insulation. Must have caught well over 50 mice up there in two years.

2. Dining room chimney flue is not lined and needs to be, as there are significant tar stains on the chimney stack in the roof space. The register plate is set too low against the bresummer beam with significant tar deposits built up on top of it. The woodburner needs replacing as it is too large for the flue. External ventilation to the fire place is required. The thing that most worried us about the external chimney stack is that it is 1.1 metres high but our surveyor told us it should be 1.8 metres high. All these issues contribute to a high risk of a chimney fire and thatch fire, and he recommends that these issues should be rectified as a matter of urgency. He pointed out that there may be a problem with raising the stack height as it is a listed building in a conservation area.

Yes, put in a flue liner.
Then it doesn't matter where the register plate is.
Too big??? You can run a pretty big woodburner on a 6" liner. What size is it?

Insures want a 6 foot clearance above the ridge. You may be able to achieve that by leaving the stack alone and putting a pot on top, with the flue terminal on top of that, like we have. The CO would probably regards the addition of a (suitably old) pot as de minimis.
Btw, it's not sparks that cause fires, it's woodburners and unlined flues and the thatch catching fire from inside by spontaneous combustion.
Flue liner, insulated or twin-wall, important.

Tomorrow I might add a couple of pics to this post, but that's the gist of it,
Nice to be a cash buyer, one can ignore this sort of survey nonsense. Like we did.

Ivor

Edit; one has to recognise that I haven't seen the house, it might have been eaten to a crisp, climb up there with a mallet and a bradawl and have a tap and a poke, make up your own mind.

 

[Lime]

Says who?
A specialist old building surveyor or some numpty? RSJ ??... get lost...

That was my reaction too.
As soon as I read "RSJ" for a structural repair in the roof of a Grade II listed cottage I formed the opinion that this survey wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

 

[xanthe]

Hold firm - your offer was 'subject to survey' I presume? I'm also presuming that you haven't exchanged yet?

If so, then the worst they can do is to put the property back on the market. No-one else is going to move fast and most buyers are subject to their masters 'the mortgage lenders'.

We are in a similar process - put in an offer STS, survey threw up a lot of stuff that wasn't immediately obvious as well as a lot that was. Property was being sold as a 'turn the key and no work needed' rather than the 10 year/£6 figure project that it actually is. I had the CO out for a look and a number of different trades round to quote and we then spent a few weeks quibbling about the price. Now just in final stages with solicitors :evil:

Our vendors did put the property back on the market for over 3 weeks in the middle - I wasn't too worried. No-one was going to be doing anything different from us and most likely they would get someone who wouldn't "fall in love", be a cash buyer and just shrug their shoulders at most of the survey. At least we were 8 weeks further down the process than any new person.

Others will probably give better advice on the tech side, but do not be pressured into completing when you're not ready to.

Try SPAB's advice line if you want suggestions of people to come and look at various bits and advise. They were great on the phone and gave me advice on bit I hadn't thought about (I gave them the Rightmove link so they had some pics).

 

[Keithj]

I've had the "We'll have to put the property back on the market" threat (not on this house). My immediate answer was "You accepted my offer. If you withdraw that acceptance by putting it back on the market, my offer will also be withdrawn. Knowing what I know now, my new offer to your agent will be considerably lower."

I wasn't that bothered about buying that particular house anyway, although we did end up living there for about 20 years.

 

[skier-hughes]

Too big??? You can run a pretty big woodburner on a 6" liner. What size is it?
Ivor

Woodburners over a certain size now need an external air source, which is what I take it to mean, rather than too big for the flue, which does sound rather silly!!

 

[88v8]

Too big??? You can run a pretty big woodburner on a 6" liner. What size is it?
Ivor

Woodburners over a certain size now need an external air source, which is what I take it to mean, rather than too big for the flue, which does sound rather silly!!

Ahhh, good point. Yes, over 5kw there is supposed to be a vent of, ummm, 1" sq per kw, I think it is. Mind you, that's probably sensible for a modern unhealthy sealed-up house, being killed by carbon monoxide would be inconvenient.

We're running two 8kw stoves in interconnected rooms, plus a kitchen extractor which exhausts the same space, no vents and we're still alive... but the house is quite 'leaky'.

Ivor

 

[livias]

I put a vent in the wall hidden behind a curtain just to satisfy building regs. Then I bunged some insulation in to it to stop the draught. As you say, putting vents in leaky old houses is just silly

Also to satisfy building control I put up a carbon monoxide detector, which is reasonable H&S but then immediately put gaffer tape over the irritating little flashing red light. Why do they do it?

Anna
In bah humbug! mode

 

[Flyfisher]

The Hetas rules seem to change quite a bit and can be widely interpreted.

We had a 5kW stove installed last November and it required no additional ventilation. The installer also supplied a carbon monoxide detector.

We've just had a 7kW stove installed and it required additional ventilation for certification, even though the installer said it wouldn't actually be necessary. As we have a suspended floor with good ventilation, a small grille in the floor was deemed adequate and avoided the need to cut through any walls. The installer again supplied a carbon monoxide detector, but this time it had to be fixed to the wall because of new regulations. He said it was very unpopular and he knows that people remove them as soon as he's gone, but that's the latest rule apparently. I didn't care where he put the thing as we haven't yet decorated that room. :wink:

We also have an 11kW boiler stove installed by a different Hetas person. It required additional ventilation for certification and that installer said we would need additional ventilation through the wall for certification, though on the basis of the other stoves I persuaded them that a floor grille should be adequate (again, a suspended floor with good ventilation and visible airbricks).

Our installer also said that new build houses, that have to meet more stringent 'air tightness' tests, require additional ventilation to be installed for any stove regardless of its size.

He also said that if the stove functions properly, i.e. easy to light, has a good draw, doesn't spill smoke etc, then it's a pretty good indication that ventilation is adequate!

 

[Penners]

He also said that if the stove functions properly, i.e. easy to light, has a good draw, doesn't spill smoke etc, then it's a pretty good indication that ventilation is adequate!

It's good to hear of a specialist who is also a pragmatist.

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed - he was not at all 'jobsworthy' and although not exactly scathing about the regulations he certainly recognised that they sometimes cause more trouble than they are worth. But it's not always easy to write formal documents with 'common sense' in mind and when it comes to signing his name on a legal document (copies sent to local council etc) then he's pretty much bound by the regulations. 'Tis the curse of our age.

 

[Penners]

'Tis the curse of our age.

Absolutely! When I think back to my first period property fixer-upper, I had to apply for LBC, but that was it. No regulations, certifications* or sign-offs were involved. Well... not that I knew about, anyway!

The CO did occasionally pop his head round the door to ask how it was going. He wore a velvet jacket and bow tie, so didn't actually venture inside the Black Hole, preferring to go into our residential caravan and eat Mrs P's chocolate cake.



* The CO did ask me to have my whole-house electrical installation inspected by a professional, which I did. But he (the CO) never followed up to check that I'd done it.