Supporting chimney brickwork

[00rebsta]

Hi all,

So in our 1930s semi, the chimney breasts had been removed from the rear of the house - on both floors. The owners at the time stated it was done before they bought the house in the 90s. The brickwork in the roof space and the stack are still there. The neighbours chimney breasts are still there too on their side. Pre purchase, our structural surveyor basically never commented on whether the chimney was supported enough - it was missed completely. Its took me 2 years since we bought it to realise (I feel stupid to have not noticed). Do i bother trying to go back to the surveyor for some sort of financial recompense? In hindsight it seems a really stupid obvious thing to miss - (they did go in the roof and commented on that but no comment on the brickwork in the roof being supported so they can't say it wasn't visible when theres a photo!)

Anyway, due to now a lack of trust of the first surveyor, I decided to get another engineer in from a completely different company to have a look. He basically said theres a piece of timber holding it up, which has sagged a bit but doesn't think theres much evidence to show its going to collapse. (But would there be anyway?!) Im still waiting on his report to state what should be done to remedy it. His verbal estimate was 5-6k to put right to meet building regs? Is this about right?
How does it work with getting building regs I've never had work like this done. Get a builder first? Then apply for building regs? The chimney stack is shared with next door so it can't be taken down unless it's agreed with them. (That wouldve been my easiest option had it not been shared). Do we need a party wall agreement with them to do this work?

 

[Cubist]

Hi There and Welcome,

Building Regs define the mandatory requirements that must be met by anyone making repairs or modifications to their homes. The Regulations also define the requirements for formal notification of planned works to the. councils governing agencies - Buildings Control, Planning Office and Conservation amongst them. Depending on the nature and extent of the works the authorities may insist on formal inspections of the site at key moments during the execution of the work to ensure compliance and the issue of an appropriate certificate at completion.

In a traditional semi the chimney breasts are bonded into the party wall but, to all intents and purposes, they are entirely separate constructions until they reach the junction of the flues from each property. At this point the chimney stack becomes a shared/or common component for which the respective owners are 'jointly' responsible and accountable. This final shared section of the chimney should not be compromised due to the risk of fire and noxious gas emissions.

All such work has been notifiable under planning law for many years and there should be records on file with the councils planning office to confirm BR Compliance. It would be worth your while talking to the Planning Office to verify the position before proceeding further and secure their guidance before taking any further action. Any 'good' builder should be able to guide you but, 'you' under the law are ultimately liable.

 

[Lacan07]

Hi all,

So in our 1930s semi, the chimney breasts had been removed from the rear of the house - on both floors. The owners at the time stated it was done before they bought the house in the 90s. The brickwork in the roof space and the stack are still there. The neighbours chimney breasts are still there too on their side. Pre purchase, our structural surveyor basically never commented on whether the chimney was supported enough - it was missed completely. Its took me 2 years since we bought it to realise (I feel stupid to have not noticed). Do i bother trying to go back to the surveyor for some sort of financial recompense? In hindsight it seems a really stupid obvious thing to miss - (they did go in the roof and commented on that but no comment on the brickwork in the roof being supported so they can't say it wasn't visible when theres a photo!)

Anyway, due to now a lack of trust of the first surveyor, I decided to get another engineer in from a completely different company to have a look. He basically said theres a piece of timber holding it up, which has sagged a bit but doesn't think theres much evidence to show its going to collapse. (But would there be anyway?!) Im still waiting on his report to state what should be done to remedy it. His verbal estimate was 5-6k to put right to meet building regs? Is this about right?
How does it work with getting building regs I've never had work like this done. Get a builder first? Then apply for building regs? The chimney stack is shared with next door so it can't be taken down unless it's agreed with them. (That wouldve been my easiest option had it not been shared). Do we need a party wall agreement with them to do this work?

Hi

I'd get some builders in to take a look first, let them come up with a solution and a quote. A good builder will know the score and whether you need building control involved, etc.

Does the supporting timber span from wall to wall? I don't suppose it could be replaced with a steel?

 

[stuart45]

It is notifiable work, and Building Control will normally want the calculations done by a structural engineer. Once this is done the builder can carry out the work.

 

[a twig]

I went the other way and reinstated the chimney

 

[stuart45]

I went the other way and reinstated the chimney

I would think that most people who own a period property would do the same. It would be unusual to take one out.
Back in the 70's, it was common to remove them. I used to work with an old bricklayer who had done quite a few, and reckoned the tying in of the brickwork was enough to hold up the rest. There must be thousands around the country like this.

 

[malcolm]

Some bad stuff can happen to a house structurally and it still kind of works. I'm a bit upset with someone from 1850 who decided to build a 2 story extension on top of a lean-to without first checking if there were any foundations.

I'm very much against taking on surveyors and structural engineers. That's one of those industries designed to suck your money away at the rate of £200/hour. If it's not moving it's probably still working. If you have cracks and leaning it's probably a problem.

 

[Lacan07]

Some bad stuff can happen to a house structurally and it still kind of works. I'm a bit upset with someone from 1850 who decided to build a 2 story extension on top of a lean-to without first checking if there were any foundations.

I'm very much against taking on surveyors and structural engineers. That's one of those industries designed to suck your money away at the rate of £200/hour. If it's not moving it's probably still working. If you have cracks and leaning it's probably a problem.

I got messed about by a structural engineer for well over a year when, in my naivety, I was trying to do things the right way. Amongst other things I wanted to remove a non structural wall between the kitchen and diner and I thought I would run it passed building control because it was changing the layout of the house. Even though this wall was non structural the engineer insisted on a 'wind post' between the two spaces. And whats worse his specification on the drawings involved relatively new techniques often found in commercial buildings which none of the builders I talked to would touch with a barge pole. Eventually he suddenly left the company and the guy that took over my case quickly contacted me to say I wouldn't need a wind post after all (the new space was no where near big enough to warrant it). It was an absolute farce that I wish I'd never started. The only saving grace was that building control allowed me to delete / transfer these notifications over to some new jobs I was moving on to at the time.

 

[88v8]

The brickwork in the roof space and the stack are still there.

Done 30+ years ago... stood the test of time n'all that.
So has it been corbelled back?

Pictures, we like pictures....

Ivor

 

[TudorCottage]

My Auntie is currently going through a similar scenario at the moment. I know the chimney breast well because my Dad removed it in the 70’s and I helped lug the rubble out to the skip as a lad What was left in the loft was only supported by a wooden beam.

Fast forward 50+ years and the house hasn’t suffered any dire consequences.

My Auntie has just successfully sold at the 3rd attempt (first 2 failures had nothing to do with the chimney) The house was surveyed 3 times. The first 2 didn’t even mention the chimney, the 3rd did and my Auntie agreed to a £5k reduction in price. It’s up to the new owners if they spend that money getting it done or wait until they decide to sell and see how thorough the next surveyor is

Seems to make a mockery of this surveying malarkey!!

 

[Cubist]

During our five year hunt before settling on this old place we turned away from a number of properties: -

• A windmill too near an A road.
• A faux Tudor mansion-ette with rotten sill plates and a drive I couldn't get the car out of.
• A delightful stone cottage because of a huge and badly constructed buttress holding up the gable end and chimney stack.
• A lovely brick and timber house that would have been under water to the first floor when the Severn flooded.
• A genuine tudor timber frame with brick infill because to previous owners brother owned the surrounding land and objected to the sale by ploughing the shared driveway.
• A country cottage too near a church with a haunt of campanologists and a billionaire whose ears I'd boxed in my callow youth.

But never once did we use the flaws identified by the surveyors as ploys for negotiation - maybe we were naive.

 

[Feltwell]

I got £16k taken off this house due to the £1k structural survey saying the roof was at the end of it's life - so in that respect it paid for itself easily. The new roof cost more than £16k though, but I knew it would. I didn't want to get a structural survey done but the vendor wouldn't budge on price without an "official" report. The survey report was good but it didn't say anything that I couldn't have spotted for myself.

One top tip from my solicitor was if you want a structural survey, get one done but arrange it yourself, get it addressed to you and don't let the mortgage company know that you've had it done. Get a valuation survey done by the mortgage company - as that's unlikely to raise issues unless they are overwhelmingly obvious. If they see the structural survey they may put retentions on for minor rubbish such as woodworm, damp treatment etc etc until inappropriate works are done to (not) remedy them.

From what I hear now most valuations are done without even a visit, Google Streetview is used!

 

[00rebsta]

Just realised I never replied to this!! Thanks for all the responses. We are still undecided whether to replace it with a steel or build up the chimney breast. Next door don’t use the chimney at all, they only use the front one and all their chimney breast is intact. I had thought of taking it all down but not sure they’d agree to it. Getting hold of builders continues to be a bit of a nightmare. I mean we already have at least one lintel to replace, brickwork stitching also needed, then we found a steel in the wrong way around. I mean what else are we going to find next. Does anyone else worry their house is going to fall down. I feel like it’s a miracle this one is still upright. Sometimes I honestly wish we’d bought a new build box. I don’t know what’s worse

@Feltwell That’s what we did. We had pulled out of two houses prior to this one because of what the surveys said but this time we had had enough and just did a valuation. Later on during the process we had a structural survey done because of the issues we spotted. I was also told by someone else that with mortgage valuations they often don’t even visit the property. Crazy times.

 

[00rebsta]

My Auntie is currently going through a similar scenario at the moment. I know the chimney breast well because my Dad removed it in the 70’s and I helped lug the rubble out to the skip as a lad What was left in the loft was only supported by a wooden beam.

Fast forward 50+ years and the house hasn’t suffered any dire consequences.

My Auntie has just successfully sold at the 3rd attempt (first 2 failures had nothing to do with the chimney) The house was surveyed 3 times. The first 2 didn’t even mention the chimney, the 3rd did and my Auntie agreed to a £5k reduction in price. It’s up to the new owners if they spend that money getting it done or wait until they decide to sell and see how thorough the next surveyor is

Seems to make a mockery of this surveying malarkey!!

Ah really? that’s reassuring to know then. Glad it’s not just me . Yeah I feel like there’s probably loads of houses out there with this issue from decades ago and nothings happened. Interesting they also never mentioned it in your aunties case too. We always hear how surveyors are always covering themselves so surprising I guess.

 

[00rebsta]

Done 30+ years ago... stood the test of time n'all that.
So has it been corbelled back?

Pictures, we like pictures....

Ivor

That’s a purlin going through it too isnt it?

 

[00rebsta]

I would think that most people who own a period property would do the same. It would be unusual to take one out.
Back in the 70's, it was common to remove them. I used to work with an old bricklayer who had done quite a few, and reckoned the tying in of the brickwork was enough to hold up the rest. There must be thousands around the country like this.

yeh I had a relative say that about the tying in of the brickwork and then when the latest engineer said the same thing too I felt a bit reassured. But it still doesn’t change the fact it doesn’t fit todays rules.
But then again everyone says new builds are shit and they’re obviously supposed to comply with all thes regs. More regs all the time but the standard of workmanship on some of these new housing estates never gets better does it
It’s also a bit of a pain trying to find pros who’ll do the old techniques like using lime plaster. Urgh. Somehow these skills need to be stopped from dying out

 

[Lacan07]

That’s a purlin going through it too isnt it?

View attachment 10028

View attachment 10029

yeah

 

[Lacan07]

yeh I had a relative say that about the tying in of the brickwork and then when the latest engineer said the same thing too I felt a bit reassured. But it still doesn’t change the fact it doesn’t fit todays rules.
But then again everyone says new builds are shit and they’re obviously supposed to comply with all thes regs. More regs all the time but the standard of workmanship on some of these new housing estates never gets better does it
It’s also a bit of a pain trying to find pros who’ll do the old techniques like using lime plaster. Urgh. Somehow these skills need to be stopped from dying out

Id say new builds we're a lottery, you don't get enough access to assess whether you're getting what you've paid for, like all houses I suppose. As others have said surveyors are often a waste of time.

 

[a twig]

Potentially that purlin is just in rather that through, the newer brickwork looks like it was built out to support it

 

[00rebsta]

Some bad stuff can happen to a house structurally and it still kind of works. I'm a bit upset with someone from 1850 who decided to build a 2 story extension on top of a lean-to without first checking if there were any foundations.

I'm very much against taking on surveyors and structural engineers. That's one of those industries designed to suck your money away at the rate of £200/hour. If it's not moving it's probably still working. If you have cracks and leaning it's probably a problem.

Woah really? and all this time later it still hasn’t fallen down? Pretty epic stuff that is! Okay maybe I won’t worry so much about mine then. I constantly fear the house will fall down

Yeah they said everything looks fine, no cracking/leaning so to just keep an eye on it. I did have a builder have a quick look at it whilst getting a quote for other work. He just said he had seen much much worse and to just leave it alone so I’ll probs just keep an eye on it as suggested until we decide what we want to eventually do with it. Putting the breast back would be lovely I think to have potential of fire places in every room again. A lot of the old features have gone. Just left with a few of the original 1930s doors