Supplier vs. Contractor

[atlasfever]

Background: Full flat refurb.

Question: This may be an odd question, and I hope I phrase it correctly:
My question is not so much about underfloor heating as it is about vendor supply prices vs. installation.

I found about 6 suppliers of (water) underfloor heating. Each quotes for the supply of the materials (after taking my flat survey, details, etc). They provide all the specs needed, and the price for the supply. Names such as: Wunda, Uponor, Nu-Heat, Jupiter, Timolean. Most do not provide an install price, with the exception of Jupiter/Timolean who do provide one, but it's not really full install. It's more like installing pipe and connection to a manifold. But, NOT linked up to the boiler nor to electricals.

My contractor, while good, was not able to provide a quote for underfloor heating (he doesn't usually deal with it), so being that I'm detailed anyway, I went on my own search. Now, if I follow this current course of action, I would get someone to install pipe, but not to the boiler. Then, I have to pay a plumber to do the rest of the connections. Something seems like I'm going to pay extra … as in, paying for individual jobs from individual contractors sounds like extra expense and potentially less responsibility taking….

So, is the mistake I'm making that I am contacting the suppliers directly? Should I be finding an installer (i guess a plumber), who will install it all, from A to Z?
And, is if it's correct to take the supply price + vat of the supplier (i.e. Nu-Heat) and then add on an install price. When an installer buys the products, they get it at a discount, so…. well, I'm confused about this pricing.

Any feedback?

 

[Nigel Watts]

An underfloor hot water heating system on the first floor of a Georgian house is not something I would contemplate, not least becasue it will make a terrible mess of the floorboards.

 

[Penners]

While I agree with Nigel's comment, here is my understanding of the supplier/installer situation.

You wouldn't go to a copper pipe manufacturer/wholesaler to get your domestic plumbing installed. Likewise, you don't generally go to an underfloor heating equipment manufacturer/wholesaler to get your UFH installed.

You need to be talking to UFH installers. Assuming they work along the same lines as most building trades, they will quote you for source and purchase of the equipment for your installation, and then install it for you. This would normally be done to a price agreed between you - either a fixed price or a time-and-materials deal.

The installer will probably apply some sort of mark-up to the materials that he buys for your installation. This is normal and, within fair limits, not unreasonable. He will have to spend time researching suppliers of the appropriate equipment, ordering it, collecting it and transporting it to your house, keeping records of it and invoicing you for it. This all has to be paid for.

Finally, I repeat - I entirely agree with Nigel that installing underfloor heating in a first floor Georgian apartment is a highly questionable decision.

 

[MatthewC]

My contractor, while good, was not able to provide a quote for underfloor heating (he doesn't usually deal with it)

So he's the wrong contractor for your job.

 

[atlasfever]

Hi Penner & Nigel:

Interesting point that you're making, that UFH is not advisable for a 1st floor georgian flat.
The UFH floor floats on top of the floor (though it's not original floorboards, I still can just leave them there). The insulation sits between the joists underneath. And, since I have a modern room, the manifold system sits there, in a cubby/wall area. It's true that I have not made the attempt yet for double glazing (which I will try for later), but I had a mechanical engineer do the heatloss measurements and it seems that I'm down about 20%, so I am putting in electric convection heaters for those extra cold days.

Let me know if you think I'm missing something. Even the UFH floating floor is a panel layer (as in, they don't install a solution, or something that would affect the floor below).

Cheers.

 

[atlasfever]

MatthewC,

Yes, I sure understand your point. Well, he does offer lots of other skills, just ufh is not one, so I compromised, and anyway, would get the specialist installer for it. On the flip side, the contractor is willing to meet me after 6pm, and on weekends -- 4 contractors I met said they would not do this, and with my travel schedule, his flexibility is of value.

Cheers.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Installing modern heating systems in old houses without doing too much damage either to the fabric or to their character is always a difficult balancing act.

A system which is completely invisible once installed, such as underfloor heating, risks damaging the floor during installation and afterwards (wooden boards may shrink more); radiators can be unsightly and inconvenient; air conditioning is noisy and requires vents and trunking to be installed. I have tended to opt for radiators under windows, but even these are not wholly satisfactory as they can impede the hang of curtains.

Placing a floor heating system on top of the existing floor as you propose will raise the floor level. This will change the proportions of the rooms and pay havoc with all kinds of deatils, such as skirtings, original mantelpieces, hearthstones, doors which have to be cut down and staircases, where the bottom risers will become far to shallow. The same thing happens when people instal hardwood or marble floors. Personally I would rather see a battered old floor at its correct level (with some nice carpets and rugs) than a swish new marble or hardwood one at the wrong level.

 

[atlasfever]

Nigel:
Hmmm, interesting points. And, I'm certainly trying to balance the same points (in my mind). The floor levelling challenge (increase in height due to floating level) is actually not an issue with the fireplace/skirting thanks to the crazy contractors employed by previous owner. And, at only about 15mm plus engineered floor, I think it's not really a proportion damaging effect -- meanwhile, those radiators not only take up lovely space under the windows (the inlet, one shutter segment deep) it also hides the nice panelling under the windows. I don't think radiators are so unattractive, they can be rather nice, but to me, they distract from the rest of the flat. Again, not soooo strongly against them. When the crappy modern radiators were removed from one window inlet, I (surprisingly) felt so good to be able to shimmy up to the window and enjoy that space. I know that sounds silly, as it should not really make much of a difference, but I felt the window inlet just elongated and for lack of a better word, it's just more glorious.

It's amazing how all of this is such a balancing act

I believe I saw a photo of one of your rooms... i think.. Do you have a site, or do you have images that you've posted in a previous discussion. I recall hearing that you have done a great job on your home.

 

[Nigel Watts]

You can get quite efficient low radiators to go in front of windows, eg:

I have these on my first floor where my windows come right down to the floor. They are only about six to nine inches high but give out a large amount of heat. Unfortunatly I don't have deep window cases there so I have had to install them far enough away from the window to allow the curtains to close behind them. In my ground floor living room I have deeper window cases with panels below the windows. Here I have radiators of a slightly older type which are not so efficient and which take up more space. They came with the house and I didn't replace them. They are not quite powerful enough to heat the room on really cold days, which I don't mind as I can light fires, and they do slightly impede the hang of my curtains. They do not look bad, but I don't often have to look at them; one has a chaise longue in front of it and the other a table.

Contrary to modern practice which sets them higher, hearthstones of Georgian and Victorian fireplaces would always have been flush with the floor. What will you be doing with yours when you rasie your floor level? On my second floor, where I installed fittted carpeting, I put a thick piece of slate over the original hearth to bring its level up to that of the carpet. How will you deal with the detail when the engineered floor meets the walls? Will you be removing and refitting the skirtings or adding a piece of moulding, such as a quarter round, to cover the gap? Finally, for the engineered floor not to look too out of place I would recommend two things. First choose one with wider rather then narrower strips. I am not sure what widths they come in now but nine inches or more would be good. Classier Georgian houses may even have had 11 or 12 inch wide boards. Secondly have the strips laid in the same direction as the original floor would have been - ie at right angles to the joists. In this way the floor will look less out of place than one with narrow strips laid in the wrong direction.

 

[atlasfever]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for that message -- Here's what I was thinking:
1. Wood floor: Agree completely with you. Wide board, perpendicular to joists, and bevelled edge
2. Skirtings were terrible (as in not only not original, they were metal fronts that incorporated plugs (the type you would imagine in an 80s english lawyer office).
3. For fireplace/hearth: not sure, your points taken on board.

Thanks for the photo. Is that electric or water based? I was actually looking at trench radiators, but it's surprisingly hard to find merchants online (for a price check). Only one by the radiator company keeps popping up. That could fit nicely under the windows. I'm not sure of the heat output though, but could also be supplementary to my underfloor heating. I originally was going to do electric trenchs as supplemental for extra cold days, but a plumber nearby just told me that the difference between electric and water trench would be the labour for the copper piping only. I imagine this is not little $ but good to know, and that it runs off of the boiler (does not need a separate pump). So, I'm contemplating this idea. The really weird thing (to me at least) is that the "inlet" (there must be an official name for this space in front of the window did not have a regular floor underneath. As in, the joists don't run into it, as follows;
A. Unlike most buildings apparently, my floor joists run from flank to flank wall, not front to back elevation.
B. The nearest joist runs along the front elevation brick, parallel to my windows, and the 'inlet' has brick under it (thickness of solid walls), not wood joists. The inlet is only about a 12 inches deep.

So, you can see that putting the trench can work for me.
By the way, the other thing I didn't like about the regular radiators is that in winter, I would draw my curtains, except this would mean that the window inlet would be closed, with the radiator sitting inside. Clearly, this makes no sense, and also works against even the trench heater mentioned above.
Cheers

 

[Nigel Watts]

bevelled edge

Do you mean all the boards will have their edges bevelled? I think flat would be better and more in keeping as I don't think any Georgian floor would have had these.


Jaga, the maker of my bedroom radiators - which are water, not electric - do trenches:

http://www.jaga.co.uk/products/trench/

Trenches sound like a good option to me given the way your joists run (mine go the other way), but your point about curtains is a good one. You could just close the shutters at night. I rarely close the curtains in my living room.

 

[88v8]

Curtains are a good insulator. If well fitted and not covering the rads. Can be as good as double glazing. So yes, should always be drawn.

Modern rads look horrible in a period setting. Imho. I used and would use again, cast-iron rads. I know they aren't 'original' but I think they look more 'right' than other options. I understand your point about not putting them in the window embrasures, the rads don't have to be under the windows although that's the ideal. They can be adjacent. Think French doors... the rads would be either side.

Another benefit with iron rads is that they take up little wall space and you can see through them so they don't visually interrupt the decor to the extent that modern ones do.

Your original question... don't employ multiple people to do one job. If it doesn't work they will just blame each other and you will be up the gumtree. Get one contractor to supply, instal, connect, commission. They might employ sub-contractors for specific work - eg electrics - but that is their problem.
You might want to specify a manufacturer, but the contractor might prefer to work with another manufacturer with whose products he is familiar, so that doesn't always help. Excellent that you have taken the trouble to research, and your efforts will not have been wasted, as you will be familiar with how it all works and will have formed an opinion as to which manufacturers produce quality, and which tat, and that will tell you something about the knwledge and attitude of the contractors you interview.

However... underfloor heating beneath wood.... I know people do it, but... it always strikes me as bonkers. Wood is a good insulator. You wouldn't put wooly jackets over your rads, would you...

Ivor

 

[d49xc]

On the original question...

A contractor will get better prices from the supplier than you as a private individual
This is because they will be buying much more of everything from them. So they will benefit from quantity discounts and various favoured payment options/trusted customer status which effectively make the product cheaper.
Some discounts system are not fixed but operate real time so if a contractor purchases a lot then the discount gets bigger, then if he reduces his purchasing then the discount reduces : which ironically makes it diffcult for him to know in advance exactly what he will charged on the day!

That said, the contractor will then mark up the price within their own internal job costing calculations to probably more than you as a private individual could buy it.
Why you ask?
Firstly to reflect the time/travel whatever used up in actually doing the paperwork/research/invoicing/payment and going to get it or have it delivered.
If you the customer did all this then the time you spend on this sort of thing just gets 'lost' and never really gets thought about.
Secondly there is the guarantee aspect. If the product fails you the customer go after the installing contractor to fix it free of charge - not the supplier/manufacturer. So the contractor has to price into his tender calculations the knowledge that a certain number of his installed products will fail (such is life) and HE will have to pick up the full tab for rectification/replacement of it - but he will only get back the capital cost of the raw unit uninstalled from the manufacturer/supplier. All his other costs (called consequentials)in terms of him rectifying the fault/making good will have to be absorbed by him the contractor.
So they mark up the price - can you blame them.

 

[DJH]

When I was contracting many years ago I often had customers who wished to supply their own materials, quite understandably in an effort to reduce costs, but invariably it used to end in tears and a bad relationship with disputes about additional costs involved when, as often happened, the materials they supplied were not fit for purpose, incompatible, undersized radiators and items that were faulty and plain damn wrong for the job. Hot water cylinders come to mind as direct cylinders are much cheaper than indirect ones which are needed for most heating systems.

These customers didn't want to pay for a designed system or buying list and, as a consequence when, say a radiator was obviously undersized and need a larger one, then work was held up while they sourced another radiator and having the original left over as it had been included in a package deal and the suppliers would not accept a return. It was then assumed that I would take the radiator off their hands and credit them accordingly even if I had a use for it or not. The anguished look when I said I didn't want it was accompanied by 'what am I going to do with it then?' The waiting time for the customer to collect fittings and other necessary items because they hadn't ordered them through ignorance of what was required to install a heating system could be quite considerable and a point of contention.

Most prices, or quotes, are invariably 'guestimates' especially the labour content and the profit made supplying materials often made up a shortfall. A lot of things aren't immediately obvious when surveying for a heating installation. I was badly caught out once on a job when starting to lift floorboards only to find they had been cased (overlaid with boards running the opposite way to the originals) not once but twice. This then involved lifting many more boards to access the joists and extra pipework to avoid having to do this and fish pipes in the space between the joists instead. This meant that it was difficult to keep hot pipes away from electric cables and to clip them securely to avoid creaking and expansion noises.

A contractor when quoting for a job will, or should, discuss the clients expectations and design a system accordingly. He will invariably use materials that he is both familiar with and which, through using them in the past, will know their reliability thus avoiding expensive and, for the customer annoying callbacks.

It's interesting that, experienced plumber as I am, when I called to my local merchant to buy some pipe for some underfloor heating I wanted to install that they would not supply me with the particular manufacturers system they supplied until I had been on that manufacturers installation course and had a certificate to prove that I had!

My advice is to approach an approved and experienced contractor and thoroughly discuss with him your expectations and agreed an installation package which will satisfy you both and point out your wish to maintain as much originality as you can in your property.

Someone on here suggests tea and KitKats... it always helps.

Doug