Suggested fireplace for this hole (pic)

[inwood]

The photo below shows an originial fireplace opening - this was partially covered by a very modern and poorly built brick affair. Opening is 800x900x450.

Note huge stone lintel above brick infill. I'm presuming brick infill was a later addition to provide support as the bearings for the stone lintel are tiny.

House has C16 origins - and this room was at one time very formal (fine goat haired plaster with hand painted frieze on the wall - see my other post about repairing plaster in this room). The formality of this room contrasts slightly with the cottagey feel of the rest of the property.

So my question is - what would be an appropriate way to finish this fireplace? - I have listed building consent to replace with a victorian fireplace or to finish in a 'traditional manner'. Leaving aside the retrofitting a Victorian fireplace issue - how could this opening have been finished traditionally (stone fireplace/brick/simply plastered)?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

The photo below shows an originial fireplace opening - this was partially covered by a very modern and poorly built brick affair. Opening is 800x900x450.

Note huge stone lintel above brick infill. I'm presuming brick infill was a later addition to provide support as the bearings for the stone lintel are tiny.

House has C16 origins - and this room was at one time very formal (fine goat haired plaster with hand painted frieze on the wall - see my other post about repairing plaster in this room). The formality of this room contrasts slightly with the cottagey feel of the rest of the property.

So my question is - what would be an appropriate way to finish this fireplace? - I have listed building consent to replace with a victorian fireplace or to finish in a 'traditional manner'. Leaving aside the retrofitting a Victorian fireplace issue - how could this opening have been finished traditionally (stone fireplace/brick/simply plastered)?

I hesitate to recommend repro, but this has the straightforward masculine formality that might be appropriate for the room (not having seen the rest of the room it's difficult to tell). Certainly it's a bit beyond the "Victorian" standard solution.

http://www.haddonstone.co.uk/shop/Product.asp?PG=FIREPLACES&SG=Fireplaces&PI=HF632W&PN=Vanbrugh%20Chimney%20Piece

 

[Nemesis]

What intrigues me is the size of the lintel with not much apparent means of support...

 

[inwood]

It's funny you should suggest the stone fireplace solution as my joiner had just such an item (reclaim) sitting in his lockup. Unfortunately I think that and the one you suggest would just be too heavy for the room and house.

I had a look at the weekend at reclaimed early viccies and I think this might work.

About the lintel - yes interesting but it appears there's been no movement as the plaster around the lintel is sound, bondded and hasn't cracked, I'm therefore leaving this as is structurally.

On a weirder note you can see the plaster has been uniformly cut above the fireplace - we've since worked out that this was made by mice cutting (chewing) a channel through the plaster (behind the hessian and frame) to access a hole which gave them access to the the outside, little blighters!

 

[Nemesis]

Do you think it might be a fragment of something once much larger? It's very odd!

 

[Penners]

mice cutting (chewing) a channel through the plaster (behind the hessian and frame) to access a hole which gave them access to the the outside, little blighters!

Yes, and I bet they never even applied for LBC. Do you realise that you are now responsible for their illegal alterations to the property?

 

[inwood]

I'll have a look at the lintel from the inside to see if I can determine whether there was ever an alternative purpose for it.

I suspect it was simply 'recovered' from another building. The area had a Roman settlement so I'm guessing stones like this - which are probably fairly difficult to come by was identified as a suitable lintel from the ruins of something else and 'reclaimed'. There are clear tool marks on the front where it's been worked at some point.

Since the building is on a high street it has had many functions so it's possible the structure has been chopped and changed around over time - although this does look original.

With regards the mice; Mr Field Mouse and Mrs. Brown Mouse are currently being traced by my solicitor as we speak!

 

[Penners]

We're all hunting around for some logical explanation for this precarious lintel. But we're avoiding what is possibly the most obvious answer:-

Dodgy, cowboy builders aren't a new phenomenon.

 

[GeoffP]

Hello inwood,

Assuming that it will be used for an open fire, if it was mine, I would first get rid of the “floating” bricks at the top of the hole, either by removing altogether and securing the stone lintel or putting another lintel in place of the bottom row of bricks. It may be that the second option is better due to the improved draft.

I don't think there's anything mystical about the lintel, i.m.o. the builder would have used anything lying around to fit the bill. I have 3 or 4 bigger than that lying in my yard at the moment.

I would then fit a simple stone surround and use as an open fire.

In my case and working on a very limited budget, I located a second hand stone dealer and bought four pieces of rough stone which were bigger than the sizes that I wanted. I then talked nicely to the local gravestone maker who agreed to cut, clean and chamfer them to my drawings for a small cost. In all the fireplace cost around £100, a bunch of flowers and a bottle of whisky instead of over £1500 at the fireplace shop. I will try to insert some photos.
This now has a basket in the bottom where we burn logs.
Before

After

I now have the same situation in my new kitchen which just has a hole at the moment and I hope to have found a few ready made stone surrounds which the owner can’t sell and I may be able to get at the right price. I will be checking these out sometime in the near future when I have a bit of cash to spare.

Hope that this helps

GeoffP

 

[Nemesis]

The mystery to me is that it doesn't seem to be a lintel at all, simply a badly supported mega piece of stone. It fills a gap but that's about it! There's not a great deal which seems to be supporting it...Remove the bricks and what's left?

 

[Craig]

The bricks maybe designed to reduce the size (and especially the height) of the opening to try to reduce the amount of smoke coming back into the room.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes - but apart from those, what's supporting the lintel?

 

[Craig]

Well, even without the bricks, its wider than the void below it - not by much, but it would have to push quite a lot of brickwork sideways to fall. Could slip at one end pretty easily though...

 

[Penners]

The lintel looks as though it's just about hanging by its fingertips on the brickwork at the sides. Very little bearing area though. As I said above, it looks like dodgy workmanship to me.

 

[Penners]

Sorry Craig - I duplicated your thoughts. I think we posted simultaneously.

 

[Nemesis]

Quite - removal of any bricks at all might not be a wise move.

 

[inwood]

Agreed, I intend to leave well alone.

There is a couple of sizeable iron straps (10mm square) under the top courses of bricks so this clearly adds 'some' support.

Geoffp - thanks for the pics, what you're suggesting would certainly be more cost effective and I suspect more in keeping with the room, looks nice. How did you fix the stone to the background? - I'm obviously loath to drill anything into the brickwork given it's precarious state. I guess I could use some metal straps either side into the stone work and then plaster over.

 

[GeoffP]

Yes, I used plenty of metal strips and drilled and plugged the stone pieces and the wall, then fixed in position, plastering afterwards.
The reason I would take out the bricks is that it looks as if they could fall down at any time as they are not supported and this could cause major problems if the lintel followed. The lintel should be securely propped up though before removing them, then a support fitted at each side.
You can see what happened with my kitchen fireplace when I took the old boiler and gas fire out

Sorry, that's come out a bit big - still struggling with photo insertion. But you can see why I've put in a new lintel. Also, if you look to the right of the opening you can see the remains of a large lintel (about the same size as yours) which was taken out previously

GeoffP

 

[Anne]

Your lintel was probably once supported by large stone under it possibly two or three on each side. If it were mine I'd show the large stone lintel and support it properly with large stones under it. This can be done without removing it. Depends what time period you want to show though. Obviously there was a Victorian fire there at one point. I'd still want that lintel supported better then it is though, but it looks like it was cut to size even if it doesn't overhang to the sides much they didn't always as long as it was on enough to hold the weight that's all that mattered. Get a prop under it though to be safe it looks pretty doggy in the picture.

 

[Penners]

pretty doggy