Sudden Leaking Cellar

[deetees]

Hoping somebody might have a clue as to the cause of this sudden damp problem in our cellar...

The house is early Edwardian, and has a number of cellars, which are reasonably dry apart from the usual damp walls. The floor is solid concrete, and AFAIK was part of the house originally.

However recently we have started to find a constant trickle of water entering at the base of one of the cellar walls, which then meanders across the floor in the general direction of the cellar door - where there is a drain outside, at the bottom of the outside steps up to the driveway. The purpose of that drain I think is purely to take away the rain water that may come down the outside stairs. This trickle has been getting worse over the last couple of weeks. We have been mopping it up and now getting a bucketful every day.

The cellar floor is some 5 feet below the surface of the driveway, and I am not ware of any other drains in that area. The house is some 10 metres or so away from the road outside at the front. The weather hasn't been unusually wet.

Any thoughts as to what could cause this recent ingress of water ?

I guess the only way to get to the root of the problem would be to dig down some 5 feet in the drive

 

[LadyArowana]

Is the incoming water main nearby? I don't like the fact that it seems to be getting worse!

 

[88v8]

Yes, I'm thinking leaky pipe or drain.

If the incoming main is iron or lead, it may be corroded.

Are you metered? If you ensure no water is running in the house and then watch the meter, you may be able to see some movement.

Ivor

 

[Tony.]

Ivor,

That is true only if the leak if after the meter.
Prior to the meter it won't register.

I would check all internal plumbing connections and waste traps and any rainwater guttering/downpipes for leaks too.
We had a vertical split in a cast iron downpipe that was causing the wall to be saturated.

 

[Feltwell]

Even if you're not metered, you could turn the water off at the supplier's stopcock in the pavement - presuming that you've got one - for a day and see if that stops the leak. That would at least rule out leaks after the stopcock (which normally are your responsibility - up to the stopcock is usually the water company's).

Re. your drain - what happens when you put a hosepipe down it? Is the trap, if it's got one, clear? A camera survey to inspect it will cost, but saves digging anything up.

You could also get some flourescent drain dye - Toolstation sell it - and put some of that down the drain, see if any appears in your cellar. This will only cost a few pounds.

Gradually ruling out possibilities is the only way to go really. Good luck!

 

[Keithj]

Wasn't there a court case about that recently? Someone had a major leak in the pipe between the meter in the pavement outside, and the house. That someone got a bill for thousands, refused to pay it, was taken to court, and the ruling was something like "the supplier can put the meter where he likes, for convenience, but the customer is only responsible for leaks after the water enters the house".

I was glad to read that ruling. Living in a house a long way from the road, and with a meter in the pavement outside, I was worried. We took out one of those "leaks" insurances pushed by the water companies. The heating system developed a leak which our plumber couldn't find - it turned out, when the man with the thermal imaging came, to be under the earth under the wooden floor by the front door. The insurance said they'd pay for the repair to the pipe (£5, tops) but not the thermal imaging (£500) or taking up and relaying the floor (£300). We cancelled the insurance.

 

[Keith Bowman]

Wasn't there a court case about that recently? Someone had a major leak in the pipe between the meter in the pavement outside, and the house. That someone got a bill for thousands, refused to pay it, was taken to court, and the ruling was something like "the supplier can put the meter where he likes, for convenience, but the customer is only responsible for leaks after the water enters the house".

I was glad to read that ruling. Living in a house a long way from the road, and with a meter in the pavement outside, I was worried. We took out one of those "leaks" insurances pushed by the water companies. The heating system developed a leak which our plumber couldn't find - it turned out, when the man with the thermal imaging came, to be under the earth under the wooden floor by the front door. The insurance said they'd pay for the repair to the pipe (£5, tops) but not the thermal imaging (£500) or taking up and relaying the floor (£300). We cancelled the insurance.

"after the water enters the house" or after it enters the customer's property I wonder? Our 'service pipe' (which is what Anglian Water call any pipe they don't care to be responsible for!) starts at a stopcock half a mile away, proceeds along beneath a path, then under a side road, under one side of a major A road, under a roundabout, under the other side of the main road, under another side road, along under the verge and then under our hedge and under 40 feet of our garden before finally reaching the house. The opportunities for damage and/or leakages mean that we have refused to pay for metered water use and continue to use the rateage system.

 

[Flyfisher]

Wasn't there a court case about that recently? Someone had a major leak in the pipe between the meter in the pavement outside, and the house. That someone got a bill for thousands, refused to pay it, was taken to court, and the ruling was something like "the supplier can put the meter where he likes, for convenience, but the customer is only responsible for leaks after the water enters the house".

I was glad to read that ruling. Living in a house a long way from the road, and with a meter in the pavement outside, I was worried. We took out one of those "leaks" insurances pushed by the water companies. The heating system developed a leak which our plumber couldn't find - it turned out, when the man with the thermal imaging came, to be under the earth under the wooden floor by the front door. The insurance said they'd pay for the repair to the pipe (£5, tops) but not the thermal imaging (£500) or taking up and relaying the floor (£300). We cancelled the insurance.

I've not heard of that court case, but I'd like to know more as our water meter supplier stopcock is a couple of hundred yards away from our house in the middle of our lane. I've often wondered if the pipe to our house really is our responsibility.

Also, although I've not bought the insurance you mention, I thought it covered all the costs of repair including digging up the ground and making good as necessary, after all, that's usually where the big costs arise - the physical pipe repair is usually a trivial job once it has been located and exposed. I'd have thought insurance that will only pay for the physical repair is tantamount to miss-selling. Though it reminds me of an internal water leak we had in our previous house. A pipe behind the hot water tank leaked, causing the hall ceiling below to collapse. The house insurance paid up for all the damage with no problems but would not pay for the trivial repair to the actual pipe because that was deemed to be 'wear and tear'. :lol:

Also, if on a meter, presumably the insurance would pay for the cost of the lost water, which could be quite expensive if the flow to the house wasn't degraded and therefore not noticed until the next meter reading . . . which could be up to one year.

 

[Keithj]

I've Googled for the court case in question, and can't now find it. I think I copied the court report onto my PC, but that was a year or two ago...
I'll go and have a search to see if I can find it. It might be important some day.

 

[billybuntus]

I had exactly the same problem a few years ago. Mine was a leaking mains pipe which had corroded in the ground.

You'll find the pressure increases overnight due to a lack of demand from other households.

Ring the water board and get them to check for leaks. They use a rod with a listening drum on the end of it. They found my leak after 30 mins of listening and pin pointed it to within 6 inches. It's a proper skill. I had a go and couldn't hear a thing and I'm far from deaf.

 

[Flyfisher]

That reminds me of a joke about a fault in a complex chemical plant causing an automatic shutdown. The plant manager called in an expert engineer to fix the problem, stressing how urgent the problem was because it was costing the company a small fortune in lost production and he didn't care how much it cost to fix. The engineer studied the plant schematics for a short while and then invited the plant manager to follow him as he went into the production area and snaked his way through a complex mass of pipes, pumps and assorted equipment until he arrived at a large pump. He ran his hands over the pump and then grabbed his hammer and gave it a sharp tap in one specific place, at which point the whole plant sprung back into life. The manager was ecstatic, thanked the engineer and told him to send his invoice immediately.

When the invoice arrived it contained just one item stating "To fix pump: £10,000". The manager was outraged and immediately called the engineer to complain about the cost when he was only on site for an hour and only tapped the valve with a hammer, saying "anyone could have done that, I want a detailed breakdown of your invoice and how you justify such an exhorbitant price".

The engineer sent a second invoice, this time with two items:
1. To fix pump: £10
2. For knowing which pump to fix £9,990


Oh well, please yourself

 

[worms]

Coming back to the original question...

No-one has raised the suggestion that this might just be ground water. It is at the base of a wall, and finds its own way to a pre-existing drain and has appeared at the end of winter when ground water levels could be at their highest. My question would be how long deetees has been in the property and what this winter's rainfall has been like in comparison to previous years that they have had the house.