Structural survey or homebuyer's report?

[Welshduke]

Hi everyone

I'm buying a grade 2 listed cottage and I'm planning on getting a full stuctural survey done. I'm not entirely sure what is covrered in a homebuyer's report though, so I'm wondering whether anybody knows whether a homebuyer's report would be adequate.

Thanks

Rob

 

[Craig]

My personal view is that a homebuyers report can be quite superficial - I would recommend you hire a building surveyor to carry out a building condition survey.

A structural survey is more what an engineer does and isnt really what you are after. A properly qualified building surveyor with experience in traditional construction methods will be perfect. Phone around and chat to a few.

Depending on how big your house is, expect to pay bewteen £500 and £1500. You can sometimes save money by getting them to focus on what you think is important.

 

[lindy]

If you are getting a mortgage on the property check with the bank or building society you are getting it with first - when we bought our house recently they insisted that we get a full condition survey not a homebuyers report (before they would release the funds). We also had to use their surveyor to do this.

Edited to add: It cost us £1000 for a 3 bed detached house. The surveyor was there all of 75 minutes. Methinks Barclays make a fair bit of cash from this

 

[Nemesis]

Insist that the surveyor you use has the extra qualifications from RICS to be able to deal with a historic building.

Otherwise there will be the usual stuff about damp proof courses etc etc...

 

[shelli]

Hi Rob

As Lindy says - check what your mortgage company needs

If it is that you are trying to decide whether to buy this house at all a homebuyers report should suffice as it will give you a fair (but by no means exhaustive) idea of what needs doing should you go ahead.

If it is that you are definitely buying but want to haggle over the price why not get a full survey done - then you have all the facts both for now and for future works.

 

[Mark]

Insist that the surveyor you use has the extra qualifications from RICS to be able to deal with a historic building.

Nem, very good point - but what qualification should people be asking for ? I knew RICS had a special interest group (which I think Stephen is head of?) but I didnt know they had a specific qualification.

 

[MdB]

Getting a good surveyor is difficult but very important. Do not limit yourself to companies specified by the mortgage company. I was given a recommendation from a friend in the house selling business for a local business and the mortgage company was happy with receiving their report even though they were not on the initial list I was given. Pricewise they were the same as one of the chains that quoted and half the price of the most expensive.

The best part though was that I was able to speak to the actual surveyor before the survey to discuss what was important and what was not. (e.g. there were a lot of sheds in the garden which were obviously ready to fall down so I asked him only to take a quick look at them). Most importantly though, once he knew I worked close to the property he suggested that I came over after he had finished his survey to discuss what he had found. This I did and we had a very useful chat for about an hour regarding the problems with the property.

The report was impressively thick (50 pages??) but was 90% boiler plate with only about 10% directly related to the property. However the 90% was actually a useful read.

Home buyer reports are only useful to tell the mortgage company that they will get most of their money back if they need grab the property back from you. They are not useful to the actual buyer. Most of the surveyors we got quotes from refused to do one due to the age of the property and would only do a full report.

As others have said getting a surveyor that knows about old properties is important though I am sure that if you ask, they all will say that they are experts....

 

[AMc]

In my experience as a purchaser...
Valuation Report - Surveyor looks and sees if the lender would recoup their lending if they forclosed. Not quite done from the kerb but quite a brief inspection

Homebuyers report - similar level of investigation, but written up with "A detailed investigation by a heating engineer/electrician/damp treatment/wood preservation...expert is recommended before the exchange of contracts".

Building survey - a thorough investigation and a detailed report. A lot of boiler plate stuff which is useful in that it explains things like how a solid wall works re. damp vs. a cavity etc. Ours on a 250 year old cottage took the best part of a day on inspection and the same to write up and cost about £1300. We also had to pay £500 for the building society valuation but it was still money well spent. Be careful to highlight things you want looked at in detail and make them aware of any changes you might be considering like converting outbuildings into living space etc.

A surveyor I spoke to said he hated the term "Full Structural Survey" as the only person qualified to make that kind of report is a Structural Engineer. As he said it's unlikely that you will be able to expose foundations and joists everywhere to really get an idea of the structural integrity of the building, but people think that surveyors have xray eyes that are able to definitively diagnose structural defects, not just an educated eye to the likely symptoms.

On a grade II listed cottage you'd be crazy to go for anything less than a building survey carried out by a surveyor with experience in conservation and period building.

 

[Nemesis]

Insist that the surveyor you use has the extra qualifications from RICS to be able to deal with a historic building.

Nem, very good point - but what qualification should people be asking for ? I knew RICS had a special interest group (which I think Stephen is head of?) but I didnt know they had a specific qualification.

Mark - there is extra accreditation but the full details I've never really gone into.

If in doubt give RICS a ring and ask further?

http://www.rics.org/AboutRICS/RICSforums/RICSBuildingConservationForum/RICSBuildingConservationForumaccreditation/accreditation_info.html


http://www.rics.org/AboutRICS/RICSforums/RICSBuildingConservationForum/RICSBuildingConservationForumaccreditation/accreditedlist.htm

 

[Shippy]

You've not said which sort of report the lender is insisting on. So, a word of warning!

Our lender agreed to providing funds based on their Standard Valuation Survey.

We wanted a proper survey so had one done by a great chap who called us before and after to keep up informed of what he was going to do and then what he had found. About £900 from memory.

Because we were getting a quote from the lender for insurance, we thought we should let them know about some "historical movement" that had been picked up. Big mistake. It was like a red rag to a bull and it went to the wire as to whether they would lend, even though they were happy to have a standard valuation done initially.

I would have a proper survey done, but if the lender doesn't ask for one, done tell them about anything you find out in it.

 

[Pford75]

On a grade II listed cottage you'd be crazy to go for anything less than a building survey carried out by a surveyor with experience in conservation and period building.

Ooops.

Well...when we were purchasing we had a full survey from a RICS specialist surveyor...but to be honest it was a waste of £1800. As others have mentioned...90% of the report was boilerplate...comments like

"Carpets and floorcoverings have not been lifted...furniture has not been moved and therefore some issues may remain undetected"

"Electrical installations should be checked by a qualified electrician"
"The kitchen is in need of updating"

All very basic stuff and not something I was overjoyed at paying £1800 for. Unfortunately, the vendors withdrew their property from the market before exchange and the sale fell through....when we bought our current house weeks later, we decided to proceed without a survey. We knew it needed a rewire, a replumb, central heating installed, 2 elevations of the roof redoing, plasterwork etc. etc. Really depends how confident you are at judging the work required and on costing it yourself. We decided the £1800 would be better spend on the work.

We were both also 'in love' with the house and nothing in a surveyors report would have stopped us buying it.

If however, there is something specific which you have seen and raises concern....then a surveyor might be a good idea....but focus them specifically on that...and perhaps engage them to answer some specific questions...eg. "What work will be required to the roof in the next 10 years and what is your estimate of costs?"

Engaging any surveyor to give a whole property the once over, lookoing at everything, is always going to result in a more superficial report than if they focus on 2/3 specific items.

 

[Nemesis]

The problem is though, as has been said time after time here: some sort of survey will be required by a mortgage company, which in turn is so often carried out by someone with no expertise in historic buildings, then there is the recommendation for a damp survey, the white van man arrives, the report recommends all manner of inappropriate treatments, the mortgage company insist on them being carried out...

 

[Matt Green]

As a quick aside:

My £500 mortgage surveyors report was 2 sides of A4 that stated the house was worth approximately: -the asking price-

made no mention of the garage (with 2' x 1' hole in the roof)

and was stated as being freehold (as opposed to leasehold with 56 years remaining...which apparently the estate agent had not added to the details as it wasn't put on there as routine- it was our responsibility to ask the vendor. Who is Portugeuse and didn't understand the difference).

Money well spent, there. What REALLY gets my (usually calm, sensitive and non-confrontational) demeanour to crack is that if I were to produce a report like that:

Re: Deathwatch beetle in #5 The Chittering, Upper Flange

Observations:
We found some holes in a beam.

Recommendations:
Probably 'worm'. Best do something about it.

I would be sacked and sued. That and the fact that when you talk to some clients they are agog that we can charge a comparable sum for a report and we are not even RICS acredited surveyors.

bah, bah and thrice bah.



Matt

 

[Welshduke]

Whew, thanks for all your replies. Good forum.

Just to clarify a couple of points, I won't be needing a mortgage, so I'm free to do whatever I like regarding a survey. Which is nice.

The property is very small, a one bedroom cottage, with an agreed purchase price of £95,000, so I'm not particularly keen to pay as much as £1,800 for a survey, but I do, of course, want to know if there will be any expensive work to do, so the fuller survey sounds like a good idea.

Thanks

Rob

 

[Nemesis]

If there is any sign of worm (or indeed damp...) do call Matt, at his place of work, and ask for a proper survey... he may jump up and down a bit but he knows his stuff... even if, as he says, not a RICS surveyor!

 

[MdB]

so I'm not particularly keen to pay as much as £1,800 for a survey,

Our good survey, at least it was good in my view, cost us £450 for a £300k house though they also got approx £300 from our mortgage company as well so £750 in total. We got £4k knocked off the price of the house due to the results of the survey (it should have been more) so was well worth paying for in my book.

 

[Craig]

If you want to make it cheaper...

Being able to meet them on site is a real boon. They will actually tell you 10x what they will write down.

Also, you can tell them not to bother with a full report but tell them you only need the executive summary.

Tell them only to deal with stuff that is fundamental to the structure and repair - if you tell him you dont care about joinery or wiring or plumbing or decor then he wont waste time looking at it.

Its not reasonable to expect them to start ripping up carpets but they should be in the roof void, basements, jumping up and down and poking stuff vigourously. Nor will they start shifting furniture so if you want them to look behind a big dresser, then shift it yourself...

 

[Pford75]

Welshduke wrote:
so I'm not particularly keen to pay as much as £1,800 for a survey,

Our good survey, at least it was good in my view, cost us £450 for a £300k house though they also got approx £300 from our mortgage company as well so £750 in total. We got £4k knocked off the price of the house due to the results of the survey (it should have been more) so was well worth paying for in my book.

I should point out that our £1800 survey was for a very large property with lots of outbuildings, valued in excess of £1.4m...so I would expect a survey on a cottage to be much more reasonable.

 

[Stephen]

A mortgage valuation is for the benefit of the lender and although you (the borrower) pay for it the report is virtually useless to you to make a decision. You should NOT rely on it at all on any level. If you choose to have no more than this then you take th risk.

A Homebuyer report is meant to be more detailed an the format covers all elements an aspects. However, the detail included depends on the surveyor - some will provide a cut-down full survey and others an expanded valuation report. It is limited in scope and what it intends to deal with. It was designed for use on standard 'estate' hosing of the C20. It is NOT suitable for older buildings and in particuar should not be used for historic listed buildings. I have been involved in several cases where I have argued that a surveyor is incompetent in using this format on an historic listed building. As all of the cases (to date -some are in progress) were settled I do not know what a court would think of tat argument, but in my view it would hold good. These reports are usually dealt with by the mortgage valuers and not so frequently by independent surveyors.

A building survey can be full (everything - all elements, etc) or limited (exclude specific elements). It can be made bespoke to the clients requirements, but there is no set format and each surveyor will have his/her version. It is suitable for all building types. These are usually delivered by Building Surveyors and usually by independent surveyors.

Many surveyors will agree to meet the client on site (when doing building surveys) - we positively encourage it.

If you want a reuced ersion say so in advance, do not leave it until on site. Do not ask for an executive summary on site when you have commissioned the full report. Agree in advance what you want from the surveyor and what limitations there are.

Limitations will exist - we do not have x-ray vision and are not crystal ball gazers. We will make reasonable effort to inspect all reasonably accessible parts (subject to safety considerations). However remember the property is not yet yours and is not the surveyor's. You must respect someone else's home and must not cause damage, which can therefore restrict what can and cannot be seen and reported on. That said most experienced surveyors can provide an assessment of the risk of a hidden problem based on what can be seen.

A good surveyor undertaking a building surveyor will not simply recommend further reports without good reason and an explanaton of precisely what further investigation is needed.

As for cost, this will vary. For most historic buildings where you are expecting specialist experience o which the advice is based etc will cost more. I suggest you allow for £1,000 VAT upwards. With buidling surveys the property price is not that relevant - the fee is often based more on the size and nature of the property and how long the job will take.

What often bugs me is that clients buying an historic building driving round in posh cars queston the cost of a survey on their most expenive investment, when the service on the car they drive is more expensive on pro rata basis! You may pay £500 for a car service that takes the mechanic only a couple of hours whereas for £1,000 you will probably get 10 ours or so ofthe surveyor's time. Alternatively consider the cost of a car service with its value and then think how much the survey costs compared to the property value.
Rant over.

I hope the above helps. See next post on finding a surveyor.

 

[Stephen]

Where to find a surveyor?
RICS
Yes, but ...
Each year we sign up for the directory and tick boxes as to which 'specialisations' we want to be shown under. There is no check on this (other than ability to pay or each one ticked. Most surveyors are conscientious when ticking the boxes, but there will always be those that over-estimate their competence.

The RICS Building Conservation Forum is something we have to pay extra to belong to and is a indication of particular interest. However, the Forum members directory is not available through the main switchboard/web site. Instead you have to specifically ask for Sarah Hunt (the Forum Executive) and get her to give you a copy or give you names from it over the phone.

Some surveyors will have a post qualification diploma or masters in conservation. These should have a better academic knowledge than those without. Ask the surveyor whether they have any additional qualifications.

There are those that have Accreditation. However, accreditation was designed for a different purpose and at present most surveyors on that list do not deal with 'ordinary' domestic work. That said the accredited list is a good starting point. Even if the accredited surveyor ou contact cannot help you he/she may know of someone who can.

Many building surveyors who are not inthe Forum or accredited, etc nonetheless have good technical knowledge and more than capable of surveying historic buildings. They are however more difficult to identify.

Do not be afraid to question the surveyor about his/her experience and qualifications. Ask to see a CV and ask what courses they have been on relating to the technical side of historic building conservation.

Contact SPAB and ask if they know of any surveyors in the region you are looking in.

Contact the local Conservation Officer and ask for a list of those surveyors known to be more sympathetic to historic buildings.

Look at the Conservation Directory and this web site directory.

As with anything in life if you want a specialist you have to hunt round; there is no easy route to finding the right person.

The RICS is working on the problem, but any change and improvement will take time and the above is the best I can do to guide you at present.