Structural engineer - what can he advise on?

[Jakethedog]

We have accepted an offer on our 200 year old cottage, but our buyers (and us) have been rocked by the pretty appalling Home Buyer Report they've had done. Even our EA, who's careful and very correct, called it 'aggressive' (We've subsequently learnt that the consensus is that a Home Buyer Report isn't suitable for properties over 50 years old, but that's obviously out of our hands.)

Surprisingly, our buyers are hanging on in there for the moment, but need a lot of reassurance, as their situation means they don't want a 'project' . So there's no financial haggling to be done.

Apart from the inaccuracies and actual errors in the report, which we've pointed out to our agent, and he's informed them, we've arranged for a Structural Engineer to visit - obviously at our expense - and to give us his thoughts.

My question is (and it may seem a dumb one) is what can a structural engineer give judgments on? Obviously the roof, which is apparently not 'true' (200 year old cottage, who'd have thought it).

But internal walls, one of which, between a bedroom and the landing, is clearly very old but is deemed a fire risk and should be pulled down and replaced! Will he give an opinion on this?

And the external cladding of the house, which we know from old photos has been in place for 60+ years is the wrong sort of cladding apparently - it should be lime-based - and should also be removed and replaced!

And the floors upstairs are 'uneven'. Wow, who imagined that in an old cottage?

All these were down as Red 3s in his report. He also refused to give a value for the property because of the significant and costly repairs needed. (Trust me, it's a very pretty and comfortable cottage. We did a huge amount of work on it six years ago, when we bought it.) Additionally, we had a purchase which fell through about 2 months ago and her survey was nowhere near as bad as this one.

So my question really is, is a certified structural engineer qualified to give opinions on the entire property or is his expertise just limited to the 'structure'.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Sounds like you've got a structural engineer who has taken it upon himself to exceed his remit and try to force a "counsel of perfection" on a house that never can be, presumably to cover his back. The comments about the "fire risk" wall, the uneven floors, etc., may all be statements of the bleeding obvious but flagging them as defects is going too far.
The 60 year old cladding (cement render?) probably is wrong though.

 

[Flyfisher]

Presumably, the surveyor is an expert on current building regulations and it sounds like he's using them as the baseline for his assessment. On this basis, he could no doubt write a damning report about a 1950s property, an Edwardian property, a Victorian property, etc, etc - a point already acknowledged by the consensus that a Home Buyer report is not suitable for properties over 50 years old.

Unfortunately, I cannot see what can be done, apart from point out such anomalies (is there an 'official' statement about this consensus somewhere?) because ultimately these things are all about opinions and the attitudes of the prospective purchaser. For example, as you point out, the floors ARE uneven and this cannot (easily or practically) be changed, so it all depends on whether the buyer has a problem with this. I can appreciate your frustration but I'd say it goes with the territory - buyers have all manner of requirements and prejudices, many of which can appear to make little sense. We had a viewing on our previous (1950s) house and their first comment on opening the door was 'oh, I don't like stairs' - which very nearly prompted me to ask why they were viewing a two storey house in the first place and not a bungalow. Nowt as strange as folk!

Regarding your question about a structural engineer, I would expect an opinion on the structural integrity of the property. Thus, the floors may be uneven but are they structurally sound? Likewise the roof, etc. I would then reiterate the inaccuracies and actual errors in the Home Buyer report to put a question mark over the competence of the surveyor and re-emphasis the unsuitability of the assessment against a 200 year old property.

I'd also point out that the property's very existence after 200 years is testament to its structural integrity, which is more than can be said for many of the failed 'expertly designed' properties of, say, the 1960s that have been subsequently demolished and redeveloped! But that would be straying into emotional territory . . . which is what buying a home is all about and the simple fact is that some people love old properties but others prefer something more modern and 'straight' - and no amount of 'expert' opinion will sway a potential buyers mind once it is made up. Either way.

 

[JBean]

What a miserable situation!

We had a structural engineer's report on our Edwardian house, after our surveyor voiced some concerns about possible movment at the back of the house.

The structural engineer reported on the roof, floors, ceilings and basement, looking for signs of 'structural defects.' He was actually surprisingly robust, and reported that there were only minor defects (e.g. sloping floors) and that it was 'above average' structurally for a house of that age. We were surprised and pleased that he was prepared to be so positive and confident, and proceeded with the purchase on the basis of his advice.

Of course, we commissioned his report, so it had more weight for us than one that the buyer might have commissioned. But I hope your structural engineer is good and you get a sensible report!

 

[MatthewC]

It sounds as if your potential purchasers have had the wrong survey done. Whilst the RICS website does not limit the use of a Home Buyer's Report ("Level two"), it has a type of report called a "Survey level three: RICS Building Survey" which it says is: "Essential for larger or older properties, or if you’re planning major works. The most comprehensive report provides you with an in-depth analysis of the property's condition and includes advice on defects, repairs and maintenance options." See http://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/consumer-guides/home-surveys/.

I'm not sure totally how this compares to your structural engineer's report, which should report on all the structural aspects (incl stability of walls), with a sensible professional view about whether any movement is actually still current, or has stopped moving 100 years ago, etc.

 

[JBean]

Matthew - we had a full 'building survey' (which confusingly used to be called a structural survey) and it covered chimneys, roofs, gutters, drains, walls, ceilings, woodwork, windows, heating, fireplaces, electricity, gas, water, grounds, maintenance recommendations and issues for legal advice. The surveyor recommended a specialist structural survey in addition, which focused in detail on his concerns about movement. It was narrower and deeper in scope. My guess is that this one will look at issues around the roof, floors and walls, but maybe not fire risks or inappropriate cladding, unless it has already caused structural defects.

 

[Jakethedog]

Thanks for interesting and helpful replies.

Correction. Had a brain freeze and said cladding in my original post. I meant render. Doh!

Anyway, we met up with The structural engineer yesterday, a charming old-school chap, and he spent a couple of hours with us going through the house and comparing the Home Buyer's Report with what he saw.

We have to say he has substantially put our minds at rest and we can only hope that his report on Thursday will assure our purchasers that the house is in no way 'a project'. His closing remark, as we said goodbye, was 'a charming house, I could live here.' I asked him to please put that in his report, but he sadly refused as he has to be totally factual!

In summary, he felt the roof was sound; the buttress wall is historical and probably serves no purpose apart from the fact that it was there and has been incorporated into the gable end wall (which is also sound); the floors upstairs are level and have no problems; there's no problem with the internal walls and the alarms - completely missed on the survey - are fully sufficient for the property.

He fully appreciated the age of the house and and made a number of comments about the survey, such as 'that's a bit naughty' 'that's very unkind' etc.

I gave a verbal update to the agent and he passed it on to the purchasers who are 'greatly encouraged'. BUT they are still banging on about us removing all the cement cladding and replacing it with a lime render, because this wretched surveyor suggested it. The render may be wrong but it's in good condition. Assume the cost and time would both be huge - oh and by the way, they want a quick deal! There's no way we're getting it done, or knocking the cost of it off our asking price. Think it's time to say put up or shut up. Sad.

 

[momo292]

Hello and sorry to hear about this. We just completed on a grade II listed property as first time buyers on Monday of this week! It was difficult, but as 'newbies' we were well informed and aware of how to navigate appropriately.

The first comment which is now neither here nor there is that any buyer of a reasonably old property should firstly go for a full building survey and secondly get that done by a surveyor well versed with old buildings. That prevents inappropriate comments concerning the floors - with wonky floors a surveyor well versed in old buildings might simply remark that they're uneven and that furniture may require some legs propping up.

For the property we just bought, my surveyor for example told me the place was absolutely fine, but that we might like to spread furniture evenly on the upper floor to evenly distribute weight, and suggested we keep things like books on the ground floor. All common sense stuff which, if the buyer is reasonably well informed, ought not to make them run a mile.

Good luck with your sale. Our vendor did not budge much at all on price even though there were some broken panes of glass in some windows and some extractor issues - her reasoning which I could only respect, is that the property was priced accordingly. Perhaps you could consider a similar stance. I have to say, for commissioning a structural engineer's report at your cost, you sound like the sort of vendor I would have dreamed to come across!

 

[Flyfisher]

The first comment which is now neither here nor there is that any buyer of a reasonably old property should firstly go for a full building survey and secondly get that done by a surveyor well versed with old buildings.

I agree with all that, but would also add that the prospective buyer should also be present during the survey. Any particular issues can then be directly discussed and it's likely that the surveyor will offer a lot more opinion verbally than in their written report.

In our case, one of the main A-frames of the roof had become almost completely detached from the wall plate because of years of water intrusion causing the joint to have rotted away. The wall itself had bulged outwards and the A-frame was only seated on about one inch of the remaining wall plate. The surveyor pointed this out and said it should be addressed with reasonable urgency but there was no need to panic. I eventually stabilised the whole joint with steel straps a couple of years later and everything has been fine and stable ever since.

However, the surveyor's written report made it sound so much more serious and even recommended that a hole was made in the bedroom floor so that the appropriate ceiling beam could be supported with a long acro-prop, which made it sound like the roof was in imminent danger of collapse! Period properties eh? Never a dull moment. :lol:

 

[kreyszig]

seconded. We met our surveyor at the property (at the end of his survey, so we were only outside), what we found bizarre though was the vendor (an estate agent!) thought it was unethical of us to do so?!

 

[Jakethedog]

Structural engineer's written report was perfect, refuting all the surveyor's extreme comments. but rather than just accepting it, our buyers are now getting the original surveyor round to have another look and hopefully amend his report. Then they'll decide if they want it. (Could have sold it twice in this time - hindsight is a wonderful thing.)

His visit will be fun, because this time we're going to be there. Can't wait to meet him!!!

 

[momo292]

I agree with all that, but would also add that the prospective buyer should also be present during the survey. Any particular issues can then be directly discussed and it's likely that the surveyor will offer a lot more opinion verbally than in their written report.

Indeed; our surveyor was kind enough to suggest this and till that point I had no idea this was even possible. While in his company he told me that on some occasions this idea went down well, at others either the agent or current owner objected and said at such times he would be at liberty to meet the owner in a nearby pub etc. to run through the gist. In my case I was lucky in that neither the agent or vendor objected and the property was vacant and empty of furniture, so it was easy to look and talk freely. Indeed he went through a lot that he would never be able to write in the report.

In our case, one of the main A-frames of the roof had become almost completely detached from the wall plate because of years of water intrusion causing the joint to have rotted away. The wall itself had bulged outwards and the A-frame was only seated on about one inch of the remaining wall plate. The surveyor pointed this out and said it should be addressed with reasonable urgency but there was no need to panic. I eventually stabilised the whole joint with steel straps a couple of years later and everything has been fine and stable ever since.

The house was/is lucky to have you! However it is worth noting that the kind of folk on this forum probably lean towards the practical hands on types and there are a wealth of other buyers that love the aesthetic of period homes without at all wanting to roll up their sleeves / have the work done by a professional. I suppose those kinds would run a mile whether hearing such news in person or in a report.

seconded. We met our surveyor at the property (at the end of his survey, so we were only outside), what we found bizarre though was the vendor (an estate agent!) thought it was unethical of us to do so?!

I think most surveyors would want to complete their survey before meeting with their clients, except the chap who did our damp and timber report, who was amazing and wanted us there fairly straight away and then basically did his work before us with a running commentary (with a sprinkling of entertaining anecdotal stories), while taking notes and a pictorial diary - triple tasking - I could only look on in envy...

Back to our building surveyor, he did the survey 8am till lunchtime and suggested we meet him on site around 2pm, which is when he ran through the gist. I thought it would be quick, but we were chatting away for a good while, maybe a little over an hour and a half.

I agree with your surprise at the vendor's feelings on you meeting your surveyor at the property; according to my surveyor things can get a bit awkward when the owner is present and the surveyor is running the buyer through things that the prospective buyer may want to renegotiate on; since the vendor is then possibly privy to the 'expert opinion' without their agent on hand, so I suppose they can feel a bit vulnerable to being ganged up on in a way. Still no excuses; if selling I would welcome a buyer accompanying the surveyor.

 

[TheRoost]

Thanks for interesting and helpful replies.

I gave a verbal update to the agent and he passed it on to the purchasers who are 'greatly encouraged'. BUT they are still banging on about us removing all the cement cladding and replacing it with a lime render, because this wretched surveyor suggested it. The render may be wrong but it's in good condition. Assume the cost and time would both be huge - oh and by the way, they want a quick deal! There's no way we're getting it done, or knocking the cost of it off our asking price. Think it's time to say put up or shut up. Sad.


Structural engineer's written report was perfect, refuting all the surveyor's extreme comments. but rather than just accepting it, our buyers are now getting the original surveyor round to have another look and hopefully amend his report. Then they'll decide if they want it. (Could have sold it twice in this time - hindsight is a wonderful thing.)

His visit will be fun, because this time we're going to be there. Can't wait to meet him!!!

If they had gone for a building survey instead of a Home buyers report using the same surveyor, it wouldn't of produced a kinder or more lenient report - more time would be spent and perhaps more issues uncovered.

I think they were damn lucky their RICS surveyor picked up on the inappropriate cement render, most wouldn't of. While they are a bit naïve to ask for it to be stripped off and replaced by yourselves, they should certainly get estimates for the cost of re rendering in lime and putting right any brickwork damage that may of been caused by cement, and alter their offer to suit.

At the end of the day its only worth what someone is willing to pay. Do you have plenty of mugs lined up?