Stripping cornicing - caustic soda and arsenic?!

[clarrabel]

We are in the process of trying out different methods of stripping the paint from the cornice in our dining room. So far we have tried porridge (the cheap option), Peel away 1 (the strong option with caustic soda) and Peel away 7. All three worked but they all involved a lot of hard work, getting the paint out of all the nooks and crannies. Anyone got any tips before we make a final decision?

More interestingly, when we did the test patches, all three stripped back to the original paint - a very bright green. Thought this was great, but then we watched a TV programme called 'The dangers of the victorian home'. Apparently the victorians loved bright green, but to make it they used a lot of arsenic. As I've just spent hours with my face two inches away from the cornicing, picking off the last bits of paint and inhaling all the dust that comes with it, does anybody know if this is true? And if so, is it still harmful?

Cheers.


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[MdB]

is it still harmful?

I guess that depends on whether or not you ate the porridge....


and yes, it appears to be something to worry about.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=victorian+green+arsenic

 

[Keith Bowman]

It didn't do Napoleon any good either by all accounts. Hope you didn't munch a Kit Kat while working and lick your fingers afterwards!

 

[clarrabel]

Hmmm... maybe I'll invest in some rubber gloves and a dust mask to finish the job! :?

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Fantastic cornice though!!!

 

[Moo]

What a gorgeous cornice - it's going to be fabulous, and (as a cornice-stripping addict) I'm green with envy!

In my experience, Peelaway does its job by removing the outer, impervious, layers of modern paint. What you are left with is going to be distemper and/or lime wash, both of which are water-soluble.
So once the Peelaway has done its stuff, all you need is a water-sprayer and a collection of tools for picking out the softened residue. And, of course acres of plastic dust sheets.
A good plan of action is to do about 2ft a day:
Day one, apply the Peelaway and leave overnight
Day two, remove Peelaway, spray with water, and pick/brush (an electric toothbrush is useful) the residue. Keep spraying! Before retiring for the night, apply the next 2ft of Peelaway.
And so on....

Not only does this method work, but there's absolutely no dust, so don't worry about the arsenic.

 

[Svenedin]

Clarrabel, it most certainly is true. The offending pigment is "Scheele's Green". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheele's_Green

Arsenic is very toxic and depending on the exact chemical compound of arsenic concerned it can be absorbed into the body by ingestion, inhalation or even through the skin. We cannot be sure that you have Scheele's Green on you cornice but it seems reasonable to suspect that it is.

I do not know enough about the toxicology of the various arsenic compounds to recommend the safest means of removal. Peel Away 1 which is strongly alkaline converts lead to lead hydroxide which is much safer. Whether something similar happens with arsenic I do not know.

It would be advisable to wear decent masks (not just throw away paper ones), rubber gloves and a boiler suit at the very least. Also ensure that dust is not carried throughout the house.

When I was a medical student we had a series of lectures on public health. We were told the fascinating story of a coffee shop in Edinburgh where the regular customers and staff were falling ill with mysterious illnesses. The public health doctors were called in and eventually the problem was traced to Scheele's Green wallpaper next to the big coffee machine. Steam, heat and mould were causing arsenic to be released into the air making people ill. The solution was to remove most of the wallpaper except for a section which was preserved under glass so that it could do no more harm.

It would be worthwhile getting some more advice from an expert. perhaps English Heritage or an organisation like that? Others on this forum will know the contacts better than I do.

 

[Moo]

Oh dear!
Over the past ten years I must have stripped nigh on 150ft of cornice. Why am I so fit and healthy?

 

[vicky whitworth]

Oh dear indeed. If you watched that programme about the Victorian Home the other day it was scary, and the evidence that it was a genuine problem seemed pretty convincing even allowing for TV hamming it up a bit. Personally I'd take professional advice before I'd go any further. There is no point compromising your health unnecessarily.

 

[Svenedin]

Oh dear!
Over the past ten years I must have stripped nigh on 150ft of cornice. Why am I so fit and healthy?

Presumably you didn't ingest or inhale arsenic either because there wasn't any present or because you took sensible precations. Just because there is some old green paint doesn't mean it contains arsenic. They did stop using it eventually.

 

[Svenedin]

Oh dear indeed. If you watched that programme about the Victorian Home the other day it was scary, and the evidence that it was a genuine problem seemed pretty convincing even allowing for TV hamming it up a bit. Personally I'd take professional advice before I'd go any further. There is no point compromising your health unnecessarily.

It really was a genuine problem. The difficulty in establishing a link between ill health and arsenic pigments was that the symptoms were often vague and could be explained by other ilnesses. The symptoms also came and went. Doctors would suggest seaside holidays, on the basis that the patient was suffering from stress and exhaustion, and the symptoms would go away soon after the patient was removed from the source of the arsenic. The symptoms returned after the holiday. There were also the vested interests in the arsenic industry who had every reason to rubbish claims that arsenic was dangerous.

I don't really think a small amount of paint in a cornice is something to be too worried about but this is a public forum and we live in a risk averse culture........avoiding inhaling or accidentally eating it would be very wise.

 

[Owain]

Oh dear!
Over the past ten years I must have stripped nigh on 150ft of cornice. Why am I so fit and healthy?

Small quantities of arsenic can be ingested over long periods of time without ill effect. It just accumulates in your hair and nails. Post-mortem analysis might conclude that your spouse was trying to poison you :roll:

 

[DJH]

I do not know enough about the toxicology of the various arsenic compounds to recommend the safest means of removal. Peel Away 1 which is strongly alkaline converts lead to lead hydroxide which is much safer. Whether something similar happens with arsenic I do not know.

Lead Hydroxide is just a couple of numbers away from lead carbonate which is harmful to health if ingested in dust form by breathing so precautions should be taken. However, as Moo says, at this stage of stripping the paint is water soluble so keeping the work damp by spraying every so on will help negate any dust from scraping. We won't get into the disposal of this material...

Doug

 

[clarrabel]

Thanks for the tips Moo - sounds like you've stripped a lot of cornice yourself! Seems a good idea to do it a section at a time. My arms and neck hurt after scraping away the small test patches so I don't fancy hour upon hour of picking at the cornice.

One last last patch to do before the final decision is made anyway. Just found out that Peelaway 7 is £93 for 10kg compared to Klingstrip which is £12 for the same amount. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Klingstrip works!