statement of historical significance

[dragonfly]

I'm hoping someone can advise me how to tackle this issue tactfully........

For various personal reasons the LBC we had in place to make some repairs to the render/timber frame on our G2 listed house expired last year and we have to put in a new application. The old application did not in any case consider repair/replacement of windows, which it should have done (in our naivety we missed that detail). In preparing the new application we have been asked to provide historical photographs of the windows to ensure that the style of new ones matches to old. This is a problem. We have none: a search of the archives at the local library has come back as none present. A neighbour who lived in and has known the house since the 1930's (her husband's family owned it until the mid 1980's) has none but assures us that the style has remained unchanged in her lifetime. The house has not had a name or address change since the 1930s either. The age of the part of the house to be repaired is about 150 years old and is the back of the house. The only photograph we have found (dating from 2001 and only 5 year before we moved in) is of the front, 300 year old brick part and therefore useless for our needs. Despite this info indicating that there are no photographs, the CO is still insisting that we do further research or hire someone to research on our behalf. We have neither time nor spare money for either option.

What is interesting to me is that for the previous application that was approved we were not asked to provide historical photographs, so I am really surprised that this is becoming such an issue this time.

Has anyone any advice for me regarding this? I want to do the right thing for the statement, but I feel we have exhausted the reasonable avenues available to find photographs, which in all likelihood do not exist.

I am feeling like we are at an impasse with our CO over their expectations and our ability to deliver. Hoping someone can offer some practical advise or info on what happened in similar situations.

 

[LadyArowana]

Cough, there's always photoshop, but I didn't really say that......

 

[dragonfly]

Considered already as a very last resort teabags will be saved for the ageing process
:wink:

 

[JoceAndChris]

What is it you want to do to the windows at the back dragonfly? What are the windows like at the moment?

 

[dragonfly]

The history of the house is as follows:

300 year old red brick 2 up 2 down farmhouse with sliding sash upper window and normal sash downstairs comprises the front of the house. About 150 years ago a timber framed extension as built on the rear, now housing kitchen/diner downstairs, bath and bed upstairs. Timber frame part is rough cast rendered over laths and has suffered from cement render repair in the 1980s and 90s. We moved in in 2007. We want to strip off the render, repair the frame as necessary and repair/replace windows and frames.

Two windows are sliding sash, the rest are casement. A couple are definitely 1980's softwood replacements, but a couple are clearly original judging by the nature of the glass. Some are so badly rotten they are beyond repair and seem to be held together only by layers of paint Others are repairable. CO wants historical photos to ensure that any replacements are correct in terms of style. The first hand account of the original owner of the house (whose family had it for years before then) states that they style of the windows has not changed since the 1930s.....

Removing the render will undoubtedly cause more damage to the frames, if not the casements.

 

[Flyfisher]

This sounds very odd to me. What if there are no historical photos? It's entirely posible. Besides, surely it's the job of the CO to determine what is acceptable for the building?

It sounds as if you have enough of the original windows (well, old ones anyway) still surviving to be used as a basis for the replacement ones, so why not just photograph those? A new photo of a 100 year old window is going to show exactly the same thing as a 95 year old photo of the same window!

I'm also a bit surprised you think that removing the render will damage the existing window frames. The render is unlikely to be adhereing strongly to the wooden frames so careful removal should leave them relatively unscathed I would expect. If the frames are already rotten then it's not really the removal of the render that will be the cause of the damage.

Finally, why do you think the previously granted LBC has expired? It may be too late if you've already told the CO but my understanding is that these consents only expire if work has not started within a certain time, but once started you have as long as needed to do the work. Are you sure that you haven't already started the work by removing even some of the render? :wink:

Hopefully one of our resident COs will be able to offer better advice than mine.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Have you met with the CO and shown him or her the existing and rotten old windows?

It sounds a very curious request to me too, my CO was very clear - like for like replacement gets the thumbs up, changing back to how it used to be, if there is clear evidence, gets the thumbs up, creative interpretation of what might have been puts you on dodgy ground.

 

[Jake_UK]

Are you sure the CO really means historical photoraphs rather than simply photographs of what is there at present? It would make sense that they want to see what is there now as well as what is proposed. What was there in the past, as opposed to present, seems somewhat irrelevant and arbitrary - what year/period should be treated as the 'reference' for example, if there was something horrific done in the 60s/70s does that make it OK to revert to, etc.

 

[dragonfly]

We have taken loads of current photos. We want to do like for like. The consents ran out in November last year. We checked whether removing some of the render would count as a start but the amount required wasn't possible in the time we had. In any case we had to apply for new permissions for the windows as the numpty who did our original application had not included them specifically and we being mere mortal lay people though it was all covered. CO visited last year and is coming again this week, along with the very experienced builder who will be carrying out the work. (He and his father work solely on historical buildings). All this because we want to do the right thing.....

 

[Flyfisher]

If you wish to replace like with like then I'd be very surprised if you'll have any problems. It's also a good thing to have the CO come out and see the proposed work first hand.

My understanding is that a like-for-like replacement of a rotten window doesn't strictly require LBC because it's a repair rather than an alteration, though it's a good thing for the CO to see things anyway and LBC will certainly ensure there are no potential questions of unauthorised works in the future.

You're obviously trying to do the right thing and I'm sure the CO will recognise this. Let us know how you get on with the CO visit this week. I reckon everything will be fine.

 

[Keithj]

Been there, done that.

I persuaded the CO to come out. He walked round the building with the builder who was going to do the work, discussing what would be done in each place. About half way round, he turned to me and said "You are very fortunate in your builder. Go along with what he recommends, and send me pictures once a week."

The injected DPC that the previous plonker put in went away (when the rotted sole plates were removed and replaced). The concrete on the walls went away. Rotten pieces of window frames were cut out and new pieces spliced in, except where the whole window was too far gone for that.

The CO was very helpful all the way through the repairs - a sort of ally-in-reserve for advice.

 

[Penners]

This sounds very odd to me. What if there are no historical photos?

I entirely agree. I don't think the CO has any right to say to you - in effect - "there must be some historical photos in existence and you've got to go on searching until you find them, regardless of expense."

I would ask the neighbour who has known the house since the 1930s (well before listings were done) to sign a letter to the effect that... "the windows currently fitted to the house are identical to those that I have always known and they have never, to my knowledge, been replaced." I would send this to the CO with your own letter, saying something like "... despite extensive researches, I have been unable to identify any historical photographs of the house at all, and certainly none older than my neighbour's personal experience of the building. Given that this experience dates back to the 1930s, it therefore seems certain that the current windows were present in the building on the date of listing."

I would also add to your letter an assurance that you have every wish to conserve the unique character of the building, and would therefore order your new windows to be identical to those already fitted.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Very nicely put Mr P! Please do my application for render coloured with Copper Ass and scored to look like ashlar blocks as well! I'm not quite sure how to word it as I know it never looked like that.

Good luck dragonfly and let us know how you get on.

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks all. And penners, we have reiterated all the points re conserving character over and over as we really want to put right the previous owner's botches. Unfortunately I don't feel I can ask my neighbour for a letter due to the nature of her very serious illness, although I might write one and see if she will sign it, if the Friday meeting is problematic.

 

[Flyfisher]

If the meeting really is problematic, you could ask the CO what would happen if you just went ahead and replaced the existing rotten windows with a like-for-like replacement without LBC anyway? After all, what enforcement action could they realistically take - force you to remove the new windows and replace them . . . . with what?

I'd be amazed if this simple-sounding matter can't be amicably sorted out with a site meeting and a sensible discussion. Do let us know what happens on Friday.

 

[Penners]

I might write one and see if she will sign it

That was certainly my thought.

It seems to me that that her evidence would leave the CO without a leg to stand on. She is the only source of information about the windows, and since she can attest to their being unchanged since before listing, you have every right to replace them like-for-like* without - as FF suggest - applying for LBC, as a valid repair.

*Provided the existing ones are demonstrably beyond repair.

 

[Penners]

Please do my application for render coloured with Copper Ass and scored to look like ashlar blocks as well! I'm not quite sure how to word it as I know it never looked like that.

How about something along the lines of "...in order to enhance the eccentric character of this unique building, while affirming its link to the building styles of its age."

BS baffles brains (sometimes)!

 

[JoceAndChris]

I like that very much indeed!

Really hoping that the CO isn't as unreasonable as appears from dragonfly's story and will just see a like for like replacement makes sense.