Staircase Disaster - reinstate or replace?

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

Hi - newbie on the forum looking for a general consensus as to 'the right thing to do' (and how to do it). I've just bought a victorian house, in which I want to keep/reinstate period features, but make it modern in terms of decor, and liveable - not a museum. My first focus is on the staircase......

When I viewed the place I noticed it had all the spindles taken out of the staircase and replaced with one long plank. It looks well 70s. I was hoping to remove the plank and reinstate the spindles, and had my fingers crossed that the boxed in newel posts were in ok condition.

But unboxing them last weekend revealed a double disaster.

The top of the newel posts have been sawn off, not just the egg or ball or whatever topping it would have had, but quite a chunk below that too. Also, to fit the 70s plank securely, the back of the post has been hacked into to make a chunky mortise & tenon joint. I figured both of these things could possibly be grafted back in if I found the right carpenter.

But then I noticed when looking for where the spindle 'holes' should be, the overhanging side-lip of every step had also been sawn off. I'm guessing there's an inch missing for each step (you can sort of see on the back of the newel post where the bottom step would have gone out to in the photo below. Sorry it's a bit dark).

I'm not sure if these overhangs are structurally important to the steps? I'm guessing not as the staircase hasn't fallen down in the last 40 years, but I'm no expert.

So my 2 big questions are:

Is there enought staircase left to even bother reinstating/repairing it? I love the shape of the newel post, it's got quite straight lines, not like the bulbous 'victorian' things you see in B&Q. And the fact it hasn't been painted is a bonus. But I'm guessing a patch-in job is gonna be hard to mask unless I do paint it. I'm not sure if even the handrail is the original, although it does look a close second to my untrained eye.

Is it better to get replica spindles made, or to try and find something similar but reclaimed? My neighbour still has his original spindles, so I can see exactly what shape the spindles should be. (Sadly the top's been sawn off his post also, so still not sure if it should be an egg or a ball or what).

Thanks!

 

[kreyszig]

I would have thought you could get a reasonable repair made to the newel post. If you can cut the top face nice and level and get a freshly turned top put on, the joint shouldn't be too obvious - you could even change the profile at the join to mask it by accentuation. Make sure that the join is very secure though - if it were me I'd rebate the top of the post and have the top sit inside it as per a mortice & tenon joint. And/or use some thick dowel to pass through both parts. (I'm not a carpenter though!)
Ditto the ends of the stairs - if you can rebate the current ends back a bit (say 1/4 inch) then the join will be near enough invisible, and some decent length dowels into both parts would help keep everything together nicely. I may be wrong but I wouldn't have thought that would make a significant structural change. I think my staircase has truss type wedges on the underneath and inside of each stair, providing extra support.

As for spindles, I'm afraid I have no idea which is the better route. I wouldn't object to new if it were my staircase - if you can find them of the shelf I would go for it.

I have no doubt if you keep the staircase and can reinstate the newel post you will consider it worth it!

 

[plasticpigeon]

3 cheers for trying to restore the stairs. I agree with Kreyzig, I'm sure you could chop the top off the Newel post, add a new top part and make the join invisible, especially if the join is at the bottom of the square section because then the join will be concealed under the square. It might be wise to join with a steel threaded bar down the middle, and top the post off with a finial of some sorts over the nut holding it together (eg acorn or egg or whatever!). Adding the ends of the treads sounds much easier than changing the staircase, and off the shelf new spindles sounds the way to go from my point of view, reclaimed stuff can be an absolute pain to work with and has no more historical integrity than new in your house!!!

 

[wobs]

Thirded on the replacing the top of the post. I saw it done on a house near us by the joiner that's doing our door. Looked good.

Your newel at the top of you stairs looks like ours - boxed in with a slight lip at the top. Now hopeful that ours could be salvagable.

We are "fortunate" in that we still have the rail on the landing, but the spindles have been removed and replaced with square spindles.

On the stairs, they had removed the banister altogether, post and all!

You are lucky with regard to the post, as my last house had this done to it:

 

[88v8]

Ye gods, they did a comprehensive vandalism job on that.

I had a new top turned for an old mahogany newel post that I liberated from a house being demolished in Barking Flats. That was in 1974 when we didn't even have a house, didn't find a home for it until we had an extension in 1990, and it went here.



I flat-topped the original. I would bevel the corners of yours, slope them inwards towards the top, and have a ball with a circular base overlapping the top square, rather than try to hide the join. Can't remember how I fixed the ball, think it was dowelled & glued.
I did end up painting it as the original post was rather mangled.

As to spindles, you may find some on eBay, example
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beautiful-Chunky-Mahogany-Spindles-/171492492989?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27edbfc6bd
or in a salvage yard.

The ends of the stairs are more problematic. If they have been cut off straight, I would nail a moulding, perhaps a bolection, over each one. If they have been cut badly that is a bit of a pain, as truing end-grain can be rather laborious.
On the whole, I suspect I would end up painting your staircase, although it is still well worth repairing as far as you can.

Btw, welcome to the forum.
Edit your profile to show your location, it will help in giving you more relevant recommendations in future.

Ivor

 

[Zebra]

Don't know the answer to any of these questions, but applaud the effort, and wish you well with it.

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

Wow 88v8, that was quite a find. You can't believe what people will discard, or rather I can because we did it in the 80s when we were sick of living in a dingy, old fashioned, worn out, grimey victorian house. What my dad threw in that skip now makes me cringe, but at the time it felt like exactly the right thing to do.

Thanks for all the replies. You've convinced me to try and find some expert joiners to come and quote me on a fix-up. If anyone has any recommendations with the London/Essex area, please let me know.

Regarding the Acorn/Egg for the top - are there any rules of thumb in Victorian design as to what would go with my particular style of post. I'd hate to get something made that is a style contradiction. Same goes for some ceiling roses - The architrave's still intact, and is particularly plain, straight lines, no decoration. How would I find out what would typically go with it?

 

[plasticpigeon]

I think you're spoiled for choice.

 

[LadyArowana]

I think you're spoiled for choice.

Oooooh yes, one of each!

 

[Moo]

Funny you should say that, Milady. Our staircase boasts an intriguingly random assortment of spindles. We rather like them.

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

Wow plasticpigeon, that's exactly what I hoped to find on this forum!

Is that from a book?
Is it an old advert or a modern offering?

My newel looks very much like the one 6th from left. Mine's got a few more rings cut into it, but it's great to see the shape and form of the top in relation to the whole post.

 

[essexbearhunter]

"Young and Marten Victorian House Catalogue" 200 pages with 1500 illustrations. Published by Sidgwick & Jackson 1990 ISBN 9780283060557.
Copies available on Abe books from £20 and Amazon from £1.39
One of their stores is illustrated http://www.newhamstory.com/node/1284

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

Thanks guys, I've ordered the book and feverishly await its arival.

This is particularly exciting as that old store was practically within walking distance of my house - surely my newels and balusters had to have come from there?
Are there many other pages of newels like the one posted above - if I could find an exact match in the book that would be amazing.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I think the catalogue is a reprint from 1897 or there or thereabouts. There's only one more page of Newels, but they are square turned and more fancy, but the whole catalogue is a wealth of info and very much worth having.

 

[worms]

With regard to the stair ends...

As a kid I used to regularly go up the stairs on the outside of the bannister in the Victorian family home, when no-one was looking. With a large open hallway and stair, the drop from the landing would have been about 18 feet and I suspect that if someone had ever patched in new ends onto older treads, I might not be around now!

Ooh! Post #1746 - which is quite a significant number,historically speaking, around here!

 

[wobs]

PS. I now have an urge to play The Fall tonight.

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

You should play The Fall every night.

Well I've got hold of that book for less than £2 off Amazon - a bargain. Really excited as even just flicking though I can see it's not just a good resource, but also contains ultra local history for me.

In other exciting news, in a flash of inspiration tonight I trawled through Rightmove's 'Sold Prices' for my street, which although made me sick at what this place would've cost 5 years ago, did proffer an old estate agents' listing for a neighbour's house, which - ding ding ding - contains pictures of their same shaped newel posts, complete with ball on top. So I now know exactly what mine should look like without having to bang on everyone's door asking if they've got a ball, an egg or an acorn.

What sort of wood are the posts likely to be made of? There's a very dark stain on them (but not really any brush marks could it be wax?) but in the sawn section of mine it's very light, so obviously not mahogany - any guesses?