Snap, crackle and pop - heating pipes

[AMc]

Every (cold) morning our heating wakes us with an array of cracking, creaking and groaning noises. As the pipes feeding our bedroom radiator warm up the floor creaks and pops and makes all kinds of noise which is very irritating. I'd like to sort this out over the summer for the sake of my sanity in the autumn. You can trace the pipes by the warmth in the floor and they seem to run across the joists (inline with the boards) across the length of the boards.

I read a couple of interesting opinions in the Copper vs. plastic thread...

I have noticed the former [fixing copper joints as you go] is likely to keep stress in the pipes and is often noticed by the click-click heard when hot water circulates around a heating system. The stiff piping is rubbing against some hard material in the building (usually wood). There is often a considerable twist in the pipe that becomes evident when a straight section is cut.
Generally a system where all the joints are left until last will have less stress and is usually totally quiet.

AND

Aidan - The click-click noises emitted by some heating systems are due to the linear expansion of the copper tube, usually when used with on/off thermostat controls. It has nothing to do with how the pipes are soldered.

I'm thinking that if I can get the floorboards up and enlarge the holes the copper pipe runs through to cope with the expansion the noise should go.

Can either of these posters - or anyone else expand on my options?

The floor is Georgian boards 15' by 10" across the length of the room. I've very keen to avoid any damage to them. What is my best bet for lifting a couple of boards and putting them back again?

Any help gratefully received!

 

[Penners]

As I think I added to that other thread, I've had some success in getting rid of the noise of expanding and contracting pipes by using silicone baking paper. If you're not familiar with this, it's black, slimy, papery stuff you use to line baking tins in your oven, to stop things sticking to them. You should find it in the supermarket with other foils, films, etc.

I cut strips of it a bit wider than the beams through which the pipes run, then lined the pipe notches with it, tacking it in place with a staple gun. This enables the expanding pipes to slip noiselessly through the notches.

If the notches or holes are actually tight enough to be gripping the pipes, then you'll have to enlarge them to create a loose fit, before you insert and fix the paper.

As for lifting the boards without damage, that can be quite tricky. Are they tongued-and-grooved? If so, you'll have to cut the tongue off each side of the first one by drilling two or three small overlapping holes into the joining crack, giving you enough space to slip a narrow padsaw (or electric jigsaw) blade through the tongue. Then cut along the joint lines between the boards, to separate the tongues. Before you do this, for goodness sake check carefully to make sure that you're not going to cut through any pipes or cables. And remember to angle your blade for a very shallow cut whenever you come to a joist - otherwise you'll cut that too.

Once the tongues are cut off, you'll have to find a joint in the board. If there isn't one, you'll have to make a crosscut as close to a joist as possible - when relaying it you can then screw a reinforcing piece to the joist, to have something to nail the crosscut end back down to.

Now try to remove as many of the nails as you can. Then try to get a crowbar or similar levering tool under the end of the board and start prising it up as carefully as you can.

If you reach a point where you've sprung the board up, but it refuses to budge any farther, put something under it to stop it springing back down again, then start hunting for and removing as many more nails as possible. The more nails you can remove, the better your chance of lifting the board without cracking it.

Once you've got the first board up, you should be able to lift any neighbouring ones without cutting off the tongue, provided you can remove sufficient nails to be able to slide it sideways.

I hope all that's clear. Good luck, and do post back if you hit problems.

And remember: CHECK FOR PIPES AND CABLES!

 

[MdB]

I used a circular saw to cut the tongues of the boards in our house. It has the advantage that you can set the depth to the bottom of the tongue (roughly two thirds the thickness of the board) so greatly reduces the chance of going through a pipe or cable (still check first though). Doesn't help at the ends though...

 

[Aidan]

Can either of these posters - or anyone else expand on my options?
!

Groan!

The UK-DIY newsgroup has regular queries about this sort of thing. Try this;

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.d-i-y/search?group=uk.d-i-y&q=pipe+%22expansion+noises%22

The noise is caused by the pipes sticking and moving on the notches or on each other.

Big steel pipework systems are usually installed on rollers & chairs, with pipe anchors at intervals and expansion bellows to accomodate the pipe movement. You need something similar, like lined notches, to facilitate the few mm of movement between hot & cold.

A modulating boiler (or similar variable heating temperature heating installation) will also alleviate this, but wouldn't be justified unlss the boiler was due for replacement. The heating water temperature is varied, so the sudden expansion/contraction as the thermostat turns the pump on/off doesn't occur.

PS It's possible the notches aren't exactly aligned, so that a pipe passing through 3 notches would have been flexed slightly to get it in place and it would be pressing on the sides of the notches.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

I'm afraid your options are few and unappealing.

Lifting the floorboars will certainly allow you to get at the problem and take appropriate action. But I don't fancy your chances of getting those wide boards up without inflicting horrible damage. Attempts to lever them up will almost certainly lead to them cracking across the width. Asuuming they are nailed down with cut nails these will probably be rusted solidly into the joist and will defy all attempts to extract them. Possibly you could go the other way and release the planks by punching the nails all the way through - but with the risk of hitting cables or pipes running through the joists.

Having said all that, the pipes must have got in there somehow. Presumably the Ch system is not original Georgian. So some of the boards have probably already been butchered by plumbers and may come up fairly easily.

Alternatively could you attack from below?

 

[AMc]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I probably should have mentioned that the floor is varnished so no carpet to cover bodges . Downstairs is a reed plastered ceiling so no going through that. There are no tongues so that's not a problem. The central heating system isn't original and was fitted some time in the last 15 years and by the looks of it the whole floor has been up in the same time frame prior to a sand, dark stain and varnish.

On very close inspection it looks like most of the boards have been nailed in with small round nails, leaving the original rectangular 'floorboard nail' holes empty. The nail heads are all a few millimeters below the surface so I don't see a way to prise them out. A couple of planks away from the 'warm' board there is a cut length which has been screwed down which may provide some access to push up the one I need to lift. I guess I'll just need to gently work from the end I can get to and hope they ease out one by one.

Adding some slippery paper in the holes sounds like an elegant solution if I can get there. Thanks for all you help.

 

[Flyfisher]

There's always the easiest option of simply living with the noises and rumbles - just consider it part of the 'living' character of the house.

Our house had a door with a particularly squeaky hinge when opened and would 'tap-tap-tap-tap-tap' as it slowly shut itself. At a family gathering one Christmas a 'helpful' uncle took it upon himself to 'fix' the door by oiling the hinge. He then proudly demonstrated his handiwork to howls of protest.

It was like losing an old friend.

 

[AMc]

With a 3 year old in the house the last thing you need is something to wake you up that you can fix.

I could deal with it and just roll over (as we have since November when we moved in) but now it's accompanied by "Daddy, what's that banging noise?" repeated over and over until I get up and tell her to go back to sleep - by which time the battle is lost to all and I may as well put the coffee on.

Something to fix in the summer, I'm glad I don't need to resolder the joints in the pipes or soften them with a blowtorch!

 

[chuckey]

When lifting floor boards, get youself a wide bolster chisel (3-4") and grind the edge down to make it really fine. This is so the force required to lift a board is spread over the whole width, using crowbars and wood chisels of 1" width always scr the boards. A blade out of an antique woodplane is also a very useful tool for this sort of work.
Even when using the wide bolster, old wood can be very brittle so if you just catch half the planks thickness, some times the whole top surface breaks off.
I would undo the screws and see what gives, it might be possible to "knock" the floorboards upwards starting from this hole.
Frank

 

[Flyfisher]

With a 3 year old in the house the last thing you need is something to wake you up that you can fix.

Point taken!

I'm blessed with the ability to sleep through almost anything. On the other hand, anything less than 8 hours each night and I'm not a happy bunny, so I sympathise.

Maybe the little darling will have got used to the pipes by the summer and will be sleeping through, saving you a job. Believe me, they'll get there eventually

 

[Penners]

I'm blessed with the ability to sleep through almost anything.

Make the most of it! By the time you're my age....

 

[Lime]

Lifting floorboards can be difficult.
The fact that small round nails have been used recently probably means the boards will be easier to lift unless they have rusted.
Using a wide bolster helps but metal is harder than wood so the wood marks all too easily.
Another method of lifting boards is to screw several wood screws into the top of a board and somehow lift the screws bringing the board up with them. A floorboard lifter was once commonplace that did just that.

However a makeshift arrangement can be set up using another stout board or plank.
The plank is placed at 90 degrees on top of the floorboards.
One end of the plank extends about a foot to one side of the floorboard being lifted and the other end of the plank, which is much longer, is used as a lever.
Screws are then driven through the plank into the floorboard.
Lifting the longer end of the plank then levers up the floorboard using the shorter end as a pivot.
It is a good idea to protect the floor under the short end of the plank with thick card or hardboard.
When the floorboard has lifted a little, further packing or wood is placed under the short end of the plank to keep the lifting level.
Care needs to be taken to prevent any undue stress.
When the floorboard has lifted enough, place another short plank under the floorboard (and across the gap) and remove the screwed on plank.
The screwing and levering process can be repeated as many times as it is required.

However sometimes it is possible to move/shove/force the short plank wedged under the raised floorboard towards the nailed down parts and the nails just pop out. Once this knack is perfected minimum damage is done to the floorboards.
The holes made by the lifting screws can be minimised by dropping water into them so that the wood expands.

 

[Penners]

What a good idea, Lime. I've never come across that technique before.

 

[worms]

What a good idea, Lime. I've never come across that technique before.

Quite agree, sounds like a real winner!

It was like losing an old friend.

In our house, I find the morning creaks quite comforting, since the heating comes on half an hour before it is time to get up and I know: a) that the Rayburn has fired successfully (which it does at least 364 days a year, so there is really no reason why I should find this such a comfort, but being a Rayburn...) and b) that I have another half hour to doze before getting out of bed.

Can you adjust the timing of the heating going on so that it works as an alarm clock and wakens the three-year-old at the time you want to be wakened?

 

[Lime]

Thank you Penners and worms.

Can either of these posters - or anyone else expand on my options?

First, a few points need to be clarified.
1. Pipes are never straight.
2. In general long pipes make the noise.
3. Working of the copper, either in the installation or manufacture, makes it stiff and more rigid. (potentially more noisy)
$. The noise of clicking etc is related to the change of water temperature and the more sudden the change the more likely more noise will be produced.

Most of the problems and solutions have already been covered by other posters.
Aiden (no groan from me ) draws our attention to the circulation pump and water temperature.
IME systems that make a lot of noise are those that are controlled by switching the pump on and off via a thermostat and/or timer. This causes very hot water to be transported around the system suddenly filling cold pipes with hot water and causing sudden expansion.
If the pump is left on (also perhaps at a lower flow rate) and the boiler temperature changed (modulated) instead much of the noise can be reduced.
Pump noise can be a problem too, particularly if it is left on, and is often to do with the pump's position together with the amount of gas in the water that passes through the pump or gets trapped in it. Poor system venting will increase this problem.
The gas builds up in the system because of corrosion and can be prevented by the proper use of an inhibitor.

With regard to altering the joist supports, slots etc. it should be remembered that the pipes often touch the floorboards (when in place) so provision should be made to prevent that contact too.
Any hole in the floor where a pipe enters a room should be examined to see if the pipe is touching the wood both when the system is hot and cold. If the pipe has no room for movement/expansion then the noise problems will be greater.

As I referred to in a previous thread, a lot of noise can be caused by the stiffness of the system when installed. Soft copper makes less noise than hard. Some installers are definitely better than others at avoiding this. Overworking pipes, fitting end fed joints with flux (that then sticks preventing any pipe movment in the joint prior to soldering) and contorting/twisting the pipes over their length all contribute to the noise problem.

 

[chuckey]

On the topics of long straight pipes, have you seen what they do on trans-desert oil pipes? Every 1Km or so a short section of pipe is off set to one side and the main oil pipe is routed to this offset via two 90 degree bends, then by another two 90 degree bends back to its original alignement. The huge day to night temperature differential is taken up by the bends, bending more then 90 degrees or less.
Frank

 

[Aidan]

On the topics of long straight pipes, have you seen what they do on trans-desert oil pipes? Every 1Km or so a short section of pipe is off set to one side and the main oil pipe is routed to this offset via two 90 degree bends, then by another two 90 degree bends back to its original alignement. The huge day to night temperature differential is taken up by the bends, bending more then 90 degrees or less.
Frank

It's a pipe expansion loop, a standard way of accomodating pipe expansion in buildings, the linear expansion causes the bending of the pipe, like a cantilever, at the loop.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steel-pipe-expansion-loop-d_1069.html

In domestic applications, the elbows absorb expansion in the same way, but the straight runs aren't usually long enough to require any design work.

 

[Penners]

What I have long wondered is how they cope with expansion/contraction with welded train rails, these days. The old days of clickety-clack are rapidly disappearing, but how come welded train rails don't buckle in hot weather?

 

[MdB]

What I have long wondered is how they cope with expansion/contraction with welded train rails, these days. The old days of clickety-clack are rapidly disappearing, but how come welded train rails don't buckle in hot weather?

They are stretched before being welded. If stretched below its elastic limit, the steel will kept in tension during temperature changes and hence there isn't a problem of buckling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tracks#Continuous_welded_rail

The thermite method of welding is quite fun to watch too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

 

[Penners]

Well, today hasn't been a waste, thanks to MdB. I've learned something new.