Skimming in lime plaster

[yamin]

Hi

HAving stripped yet another of the multitude of woodchipped walls, this time in our bedroom, I find another wall which is largely lime plastered, with some patching in white stuff (polyfilla?? Theres a pencil mark on the wall saying redecorated in 1973). Its more or less OK and not blown, excluding a few little holes needing repair. In the playroom, I used lining paper and this worked really well, but to be honest on a painted wall you can see the join lines. Not awful and perfectly liveable with. Is this the best route to go with here too? Its too rough to just paint, but I did wonder about skimming in lime plaster. It won't be perfect but I am prepared to give it a go and as I did some patches in the playroom I reckon I could do ok - not modern set square finish of course! Just to say again, the walls are completely bare now and down to lime plaster, but needs a better finish. Plan to use breathable paints of course. Is wallpaper breathable (One feature wall)? How can you tell??

Many thanks as ever

Yamin

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hey - well done on all that stripping! What a nightmare woodchip is! I've had a sneak preview of Abi's wallpaper choices and it's going to be so lovely...

So - being nosey and not judging either way as this is a can of worms - do you have a breathable house in other respects? No cement on exterior walls and breathable floor in the room you're doing up? Because if you don't is there much point in all this expense with breathable paint? Plus, that white skimming you're talking about could well be a bit of cementitious skim - do a little digging to see how hard it is. Or chip a bit off and have a good look. MdB thinks Polyfilla is breathable, I'd appreciate any further comments on this. As you know my own house's breathing is so compromised by modern alterations I've used FnB non breathing paint with everything thus far - the thought of identifying and removing every bit of cement, and Klingstripping every layer of previous modern paint, is just too much - but a thousand commendations to you if that's what you're embarking on.

About the lining paper, in this thread Feltwell recommends a heavy weight lining paper (I so missed my vocation as a librarian):

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11062

I would say that something like that would be sufficient to cover imperfections in the surface. Wallpaper has been used for centuries and must be a pretty breathable covering. Look at how paper becomes damp in a damp environment, and then dries out. When we moved into our house the wallpaper in the dining room was very damp. With extra heating, it dried out, and if I'd liked it enough to restick it back it probably would have given even more years of service.

 

[Flyfisher]

I know little about the breathability of wallpaper but my guess is that it probably is as long as it is just paper. I would check modern papers for any 'plasticky' stuff being added to improve durability and/or making it easy to wipe clean. Also, the wallpaper paste must be breathable otherwise the paper properties won't really matter.

 

[Penners]

Its too rough to just paint

Is it really? In a period property, a bit of rough wall can often look perfectly acceptable with a nice coat of breathable paint on it. Personally, I think I'd rather see that than the slightly artificial look of lining paper.

But ultimately it's down to personal taste.

 

[yamin]

Also, the wallpaper paste must be breathable otherwise the paper properties won't really matter.

Thanks for this - I hate to sound so ignorant, but how will I know if the paste is breathable? Will it say so on the packet?

Joce - you're right to point out about the breathability of the house/room. Actually, apart from the (albeit huge) issue of the woodchip, the rest of upstairs and indeed downstairs is pretty breathing friendly. No cement renders. Carpets upstairs not perfect, but no plastic backing and boards underneath, downstairs all solid floors and plenty laid to earth.
I'm inclined to think that lining paper would be best in the bedroom - thankyou for the link

Penners - the wall is cracked and uneven, dark and light, scratched and patched - not in an aesthetically pleasing way from any point of view. I know its a wall worth preserving, but its really not one that would look good painted 'as is'.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Gosh - a breathing house - lucky you!

I'd love to know how breathable wallpaper paste is in comparison with, say, a clay paint. There isn't anything about it on the back of the packet. And also, what's the difference in permeability between modern Solvite with fungicide and old fashioned flour mixed with water? It would be interesting to do some experiments in my very damp scullery...

Anyway, all I've really found for you is what Roger Hunt and Marianne Suhr have to say on the matter in " The Old House Handbook":

"Wallpaper glue is not very breathable, so paper is not advised for walls that have suffered from damp: the paper will hinder the drying -out process and peel off" (p 175)

Still, if your wall isn't an exterior facing one, surely a bit of wallpaper can't be that bad?

 

[JoceAndChris]

It's really interesting what they have to say about the preparation of internal wall surfaces.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh God, I need a manicure. Ignore the thumb.

 

[Flyfisher]

I found this wallpaper paste that claims to be acrylic-free, implying that some pastes contain acrylic which certainly wouldn;t help their breathability. No specific mention of breathability though, even in the data sheet: http://www.earthbornpaints.co.uk/wallpaperpaste.php

Oh, and while searching, I came across this interesting article on mixing 'real traditional' paints: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/propertyadvice/3300178/On-the-level-For-real-traditional-paint-mix-it-yourself.html

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Yamin,

I'd not lose too much sleep about the 'breathability' or otherwise of internal wallcoverings. (There, I've just declared myself a PPUK heretic....)
If the walls in question have damp problems (e.g. penetrating damp from outside) then the causes of this should be rectified of course. But I feel that in a lived-in house which is kept reasonably heated and ventilated then you will not experience problems internally due to non-breathable surfaces.

So long as the outside envelop of the building IS breathable then water (due to wind-blown rain etc.) will be able to find its way out again which is essential. I think it is less vital to provide a continous vapour pathway from inside to outside.

Anyway, from my experience I'd say that lining paper and paste are 'breathable' enough to cope with normal conditions, and I have had no problems in the rooms which I have treated in this way. I love lining paper - it's so quick to put up and produces such rapid transformation from cracked, scabby surface to one which is ready for paint. To get a really good stick on dubious surfaces I press the lining paper onto the wall with a 9" dense foam paint roller rather than a wallpapering brush. To ensure good adhesion size the walls with paste before starting to paper. A seam roller really helps to get the joints tight. If the wall is really bad then you could always cross-line it. I like to use 1700 gauge paper which covers a multitude of sins.

 

[skier-hughes]

We removed all old paint, patched where needed with lime plaster adn I'm currently painting over all surfaces adn the rough ones look rough, the smooth look smooth, but theay all look about the same colour, as far as painting with distemper goes!!!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yamin,

I'd not lose too much sleep about the 'breathability' or otherwise of internal wallcoverings. (There, I've just declared myself a PPUK heretic....)
If the walls in question have damp problems (e.g. penetrating damp from outside) then the causes of this should be rectified of course. But I feel that in a lived-in house which is kept reasonably heated and ventilated then you will not experience problems internally due to non-breathable surfaces.

Well I find that very cheering I must say, in view of my own predicament. Any strong disagreement with Andrew's post?

The one thing that might persuade me into months of paint stripping is the look of the breathable finish, is it kind of blotchy and interesting looking? I'd love to see some pics of people's limewash and distemper walls.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Joce,

Getting into a discussion about the aesthetic effects of various finishes opens up a whole new can of worms / tin of paint.

Part of me likes the rough, blotchy, patchy, flaky, peely, scabby, lumpy walls that abound in so many old houses, and I do feel that in some properties it's appropriate to decorate in a 'warts and all' fashion.

But another part of me recognises that much of the roughness is due to inept repairs and poor preparation and general lack of attention to detail on the part of builders and decorators, so that the 'patina of age' may be nothing more than the accumulation of decades of bodging. And than I feel that one ought to put things to rights and make good the mess by careful stripping, filling, or replastering to get the surfaces back into a fair condition.

So much depends on the nature of the house - whether it is a 'smooth and refined' property or a 'rustic and earthy' one. Ultimately it comes down to the artistic eye of the owner, and achieveing a balance between creating a museum and a living home. After all the carefull consideration of period detail, choosing appropriate materials and using traditional restoration techniques I just slap on a couple of coats of the F&B emulsion because I like the finish and the colours. And it's easy to get hold of. And relatively cheap. And quick. And because Mrs B just wants the room finished.

 

[JoceAndChris]

You have such a way with words!

I so agree with everything you said there, decades of bodging and painting over can be VERY bad and mean that windows don't open and catches don't work, destroying the function of the period features we love so much. And whilst a few dents and dings are lovely, if it's all that way (like my house) it looks a bl**dy mess! I love FnB too, which feels like it's free when you use Reward Vouchers in Homebase.

 

[Penners]

feels like it's free when you use Reward Vouchers in Homebase.

Sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings, but Homebase reward points were discontinued some months ago - last year I think.

You now just get flippin' Nectar points. Save them assiduously for five years and you'll have enough for a free coffee in Starbucks.

 

[yamin]

Hi All

I looked a couple days after my post and there were no further replies, got tied up in other stuff, then looked again and there were several more! Sorry for my delayed thanks for all the useful advice.

Joce, that book gives a really interesting technical detail and thanks for the copy. I am beginning to wonder about the possibility of just painting over it after some more attention to the wall finish. Its an interesting thought - I didn't feel it was possible for our walls, but I wonder now whether it might make for an interesting and acceptable finish.

Flyfisher - the links great, thanks - I definitely think thats the way to go for the wallpaper wall. I also think the article was interesting and raised a valid point that 'traditional' can be as abused or misleading a term as 'fresh barn eggs'!

Andrew - its reassuring to hear you say not to worry re permeability. Our house is not hugely damp considering how hermetically sealed it has been for the last 25 years. The outside walls are painted brick. I am in hopes that removing the woodchip/vinyl paint combo will be sufficient to cure the slight damp in most rooms - occasional patch of damp. Unfortunately we have hideous plastic windows which we can't do much about, but I am opening them as much as possible.
Having said thus much, our bedroom is reading over 60% relative humidity, and since we don't heat it, thats probably not too good. Think next winter we may give in and heat for maybe a couple hours each day, just to keep any damp at bay.
Also loved your persective on the 'finish' for walls, and I couldn't agree with you more. One man's meat is another man's poison - but I guess if we do decide just to paint without lining, then it'll be easy to deal with and make smoother in the fulness of time for someone with more exacting demands than mine!

Skier Hughes 0 any chance of pics to see the finish of your wall? Or is that opening it to a scrutiny that you don't wish to be victim to? But it would be really interesting to see the type of finish you get, as Joce has mentioned.

Penners - you're wrong, I only spent £100 a month for 2 years and I got a free biscotti with my £3.95 latte, I don't know where you get your ideas from. :roll:

Cheers everyone!

 

[skier-hughes]

Here you go, first three pics are of the finished plastering with completeing repairs etc and two coats of caesin distemper, third one to do yet. Second three are of before plastering and if you search back through my posts you should find more before pics to look at.

For best viewing save the pics to your pc, so you can open them up full size and look closely.

http://www.dvds2treasure.co.uk/BerryBrook/Bedroom_Pics.html

Graham

 

[yamin]

Graham - you have done a fabulous job on this wall. It looks really super. I couldn't agree more that the slight 'imperfections' are actually part of the beauty of the wall. Would that my wall looked like that! Unfortunately , other than being a couple hundred years younger, its also just boring discoloured and cracked plaster!

 

[yamin]

Graham - if you page down this link, this is a photo of what the bedroom wall looks like - this is a room I did last year, so not the same room, but plaster in the same state, but without the holes!

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10078

 

[skier-hughes]

Looks like mine, I'd just patch and paint.
Check the before shots of mine, some had brick and gypsom plaster which was removed new laths and replastered, only one bit was totally redone, as this had only 7 good laths remaining, rest had rotted and or been replaced with bricks, others had a few new laths and other bits were just lime plaster patched.

Some of my plaster was cracked, we just skimmed a littel finishing plaster on top to smooth it a little, but some cracks can still be seen. A generous coating of paint and they are barely visible.

I can't take any credit for the plastering, Julie Haddow, http://www.limerepair.com/ did the putting back together, I only appear to be any good at taking apart, so I spent weeks removing all the old gloss paint etc with a stanley blade and fingers, weeks removing all the paint from the beams, some of which again was gloss upstairs, etc etc.