Skim plaster or liner paper?

[Tc345]

Hello all,

We've been gradually removing wallpaper from the walls in our house revealing some pretty tidy plastering and a few oddities (including a few small planks of wood in the middle of a wall covering a space of approx 1' by 1.5', photo hopefully here:https://photos.app.goo.gl/IZT6RsqMwQLt0nQY2).

The most recent room however has some pretty scruffy looking plaster and it only became apparent quite how scruffy it was after we'd applied a mist coat. We therefore come to the question; should we put up lining paper or skim plaster it?

I'm very much leaning towards lining paper as it will be cheaper and we can DIY and therefore it's quicker, which is important as we have new carpet going down in just over a week. But I wondered if there's a compelling reason that i can't think of to get it skimmed?

The issues with skimming are time, cost and getting someone to do it properly with lime plaster. I would love to do it myself but my other half would prefer that this room wasn't my first effort at a skim coat, we have outbuildings for that! I've been doing bits of plastering here and there to fill holes etc (and recently discovered the joys of a wet sponge to smooth it over) but never a full skim.

Any thoughts/wisdom?

 

[Feltwell]

I've had some good results here with lining paper, but what sort you use makes a big difference. Ordinary lining paper is OK but I found the Vario Non-woven paper to be a lot better - very hard to tear, smooth finish and no shrinkage. Expensive but it's all I'll use now.

http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/m/MAVNWLPV/

Don't try and use the normal mix-it-up yourself adhesive like the Solvite sachets - I tried, doesn't work nearly as well as using ready mixed adhesive. I note that Decorating Direct have updated their product description now to say this! You paste the wall rather than the paper, I have found on many of my walls I need to paste them twice, the first coat just sinks straight in and dries too quickly to stick the paper up properly, you need that first coat just to reduce the absorbency of the plaster.

Main thing to get a good result with lining paper is ensure there are no points sticking out from your plaster - you'll always see those through lining paper.

Hope that helps. Don't forget you can also use a powder filler on minor imperfections *even after* you've put the lining paper up - a professional decorator showed me that some years ago, if done carefully it works much better than it sounds! It sticks as well to the paper as it does to the plaster, so long as the paper is well stuck to the wall of course. I try not to do this but it's useful for any imperfections that do show through. I've used it on occasions to fill a gap between sheets of paper to get a perfect finish. Any powder filler is OK, I buy bags of Gyproc Easifill just because it's cheap for a big bag and it lasts for years if it keep it wrapped up inside a rubble sack in a dry place - very easy to mix and sand down and it doesn't shrink much.

 

[88v8]

I used lining paper extensively in our previous house, Scrim paper, now unobtainable I believe.
On bad ceilings, I used two layers cross-wise, having first scrimmed over cracks.

If papering over it, as I did, apply the lining paper so the seams will not coincide. Either horizontally, or just out of step with the points at which the seams of the finish paper will fall. Overlap corners in the normal way, but in the opposite direction so the overlapping layer is towards you.

Some of the plaster I papered over was actually blown. But it was still there twenty years later.

As Feltwell said, ready-mix paste does the trick. Being a stick-in-the-mud, I always pasted the paper.
Oh, and size the wall first. Do not omit this important step in ensuring good adhesion.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

Thanks for the tips, I've bought some Erfurt 1200 which should be ok as the walls are smooth but scruffy, if that makes sense?

I'll also make sure to get some ready-mixed, I've ordered solvite stuff but sounds like that'll do for sizing up instead so i should at least be able to make use of it. I'll be doing a bit more in depth research on wallpapering techniques before we start but your tips are really useful. We did a bit of wallpapering in the old house around a chimney breast but being able to start on a clear, straightforward wall should be a better experience and let us 'get our eye in' before the tricky bits around the doors and chimney. Last time we started with the tricky bits and ended up effing and blinding and really hating it!

 

[Feltwell]

If that's a "normal" woven lining paper then you'll need to paste the paper rather than the wall, as 88v8 does - you can only paste the wall for a few types of paper. Any lining paper will make the walls look better, I'm sure it will do the job!

I've painted over all mine but the point about joins not coinciding is an important one if you're planning to paper over now or in the future.

 

[wobs]

I've had some good results here with lining paper, but what sort you use makes a big difference. Ordinary lining paper is OK but I found the Vario Non-woven paper to be a lot better - very hard to tear, smooth finish and no shrinkage. Expensive but it's all I'll use now.

http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/m/MAVNWLPV/

Don't try and use the normal mix-it-up yourself adhesive like the Solvite sachets - I tried, doesn't work nearly as well as using ready mixed adhesive. I note that Decorating Direct have updated their product description now to say this! You paste the wall rather than the paper, I have found on many of my walls I need to paste them twice, the first coat just sinks straight in and dries too quickly to stick the paper up properly, you need that first coat just to reduce the absorbency of the plaster.

Main thing to get a good result with lining paper is ensure there are no points sticking out from your plaster - you'll always see those through lining paper.

Hope that helps. Don't forget you can also use a powder filler on minor imperfections *even after* you've put the lining paper up - a professional decorator showed me that some years ago, if done carefully it works much better than it sounds! It sticks as well to the paper as it does to the plaster, so long as the paper is well stuck to the wall of course. I try not to do this but it's useful for any imperfections that do show through. I've used it on occasions to fill a gap between sheets of paper to get a perfect finish. Any powder filler is OK, I buy bags of Gyproc Easifill just because it's cheap for a big bag and it lasts for years if it keep it wrapped up inside a rubble sack in a dry place - very easy to mix and sand down and it doesn't shrink much.

I looked at the price of it and decided to go for Wallrock Fibreliner Plus 180 - 55 Double, as its also a non-woven paper for the same sort of application, but much cheaper. There are various good things about it here:
https://www.gowallpaper.co.uk/erfurt-mav-wallrock-fibreliner-plus-180.html

Our decorator did a great job with it, although he also filled and sanded many imperfections that I didn't sort out, so how much of it was down to his (or our) preparation or down to the paper is open to debate. Walls now look far smoother than I could have hoped for.

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . as the walls are smooth but scruffy, if that makes sense?

Yes, and perfectly describes many of the walls in our house. I'll second Feltwell's advice about lining paper as he's mentioned it before, which inspired me to try it on our sitting room walls rather than mess about skimming them with lime plaster. A few years on and I'm still very pleased with the results and the painted lining paper has a far better finish than the untouched walls would have had. It might be quite expensive for lining paper but really is top quality in terms of strength and dimensional stability, meaning it doesn't warp or stretch when wet and so makes it easier to get a good clean join. Also, its strength means that it should help 'hold together' the looser areas of plaster and generally stabilise the entire wall - that was my feeling anyway. Expense is also relative - it's far cheaper than skimming with lime plaster, especially if (like me) your DIY skills would be unlikely to improve on the existing 'scruffy' plaster and a professional lime plasterer would be required (ker-ching!).

 

[88v8]

Thanks for the tips,....last time we started with the tricky bits and ended up effing and blinding and really hating it!

Disconnected jottings....

When you come to the finish paper, size the lining paper. Sizing makes the wall slippery so it's much easier to slither the paper into position.
Be careful when pasting, that you get right to the edges, otherwise you'll find that in a few months the seams will start lifting. This can be a real nuisance as not only does the paper lift, but it shrinks so that it's hard to close the gap. With dark paper, this can be quite visible!

Be careful to mark all the verticals with a plumb bob. Especially around corners. If a wall is leaning back, the corner vertical will not follow round. Mark the wall for every drop, or you can end up in a real pickle.
If overlapping a visible corner where the verticals are out, the overlap will run away. Make it match at eye level, so the runout is less noticeable.

If papering with a bold pattern, start over the main feature of the room, usually the fireplace, such that the pattern will be central. That does not necessarily mean that the paper will be central; some papers have an offset pattern.

Every corner overlap should be away from your vision, so that when using the room you won't see the edge of the overlap. This may involve putting the 'top' drop up first, then the underlayer. In this case leave the overlap unpasted until the underpaper has dried. Example; chimneybreast.
There is special paste for the overlaps of vinyl; use it. But do not omit the initial pasting of the whole paper including the overlap; paper stretches, and if you do not paste the edge, the paper will bow. How do I know this.....

Use a timer for the pasting. Be fussy about timing. Pattern paper pasted in a haphazard manner will not match well, as different timing means a different stretch and over a full drop, this is visible.

Use a snap-off craft knife for fiddly cuts into corners and details, and refresh it frequently.
A decent papering brush to brush the paper down. A roller for the seams, although go easy on Anaglyptas or you can flatten the emboss. A long metal ruler for making long cuts on the paste table, at least 3ft - I have a steel 5ft - and some good long scissors for cutting a whole drop, some small sharp scissors for details, an apron with pockets to put all this stuff in as you work. Always put the same tool in the same pocket then you won't be feefifumbling about. Use the back of the sharp scissors to dress the paper against skirtings and picture rails.

When papering around detail such as a fire surround, be prepared to take a long time, I have spent an hour going down one side of a fiddly fireplace. Dab a little more paste on the paper if it's drying out. This is however not a good situation, as orerwet paper is hard to cut and tends to tear.

If you make a dimensional blooper when cutting a drop, it is possible to save yourself by putting up the erroneous offcut without it being visible.

When you've gone around the whole room, at the point where the circle of drops is closed the pattern will not match, so choose a point where it will be hidden, an unseen corner or behind long curtains.

When choosing the paper, check the repeat dimension. Paper with long repeats has a high discard rate, so you need to buy a lot of extra rolls.

In the beginning, papering is a faff. But I papered every room, the hall stars and landing, the ceilings with patterned paper that had to match. Eventually like anything else, you can become pretty good at it.

I never redecorated any room, some of the paper was there 25 years, so worth taking trouble over it.

Apologies if this is sucking eggs.

Ivor

 

[paulc]

When choosing the paper, check the repeat dimension. Paper with long repeats has a high discard rate, so you need to buy a lot of extra rolls.

In the middle of papering the drawing room - Although the rolls of paper are long enough to get four drops out of each, the pattern repeat means I'm only getting three. I'll be able to use some of the "scraps" under the window and over the door. With a bit of jiggling, I might even get the paper hung in such a way as I avoid the motif going round a corner.

Initial estimates were six to seven rolls.... Just as well I purchased twelve rolls when it was in stock

 

[Tc345]

I've changed course and ordered some of the Wallrock stuff instead to make sure we get a good finish first time with a 10kg tub of ready made Wallrock power adhesive to match. As has been mentioned it is a little more pricey but still far cheaper than skimming. My only other concern is flexibility when doing corners and alongside the door frame where there's an approx 2" gap from corner to frame. Any tips for that particular issue?

Being able to paste the wall is attractive and being able to slide it a bit due to sizing up sounds really useful.

88v8, I very much enjoyed your mini wallpapering masterclass, lots of wisdom and experience distilled there! Hopefully we'll be having a go at it this weekend so I will report back on our progress.

Another of our rooms has some pretty sketchy lining paper over a former doorway so this should give me the confidence to rip it off and see what it looks like behind and sort it out properly. Another issue in this room was that there were a few hundred pieces of blu-tac that had been stuck to the wall and then just painted over :roll: , along with various stickers, sellotape etc that had the same treatment and generally the sloppiest painting I've ever seen. So perhaps a bit of a strip and reline will be in order at some point. It's been the worst room for that sort of thing so far but symptomatic of the standard of decor throughout the house. Anyway it turns out that no matter how well you think you've scraped off all the blu-tac before painting, you haven't got it all and there are now unsightly marks showing through... This room was a real sod as on top of the above there were a few rotting floorboards, a very uneven floor that required tinkering and woodworm treatment and there's a blue marble art deco fireplace (photo: https://photos.app.goo.gl/qrZEHOPeQgRUOmxf1) that was inextricably painted over... Fortunately with white emulsion only so it came off with warm soapy water and a bit of (a friend's) elbow grease.

 

[Lime]

Hello all,

We've been gradually removing wallpaper from the walls in our house revealing some pretty tidy plastering and a few oddities (including a few small planks of wood in the middle of a wall covering a space of approx 1' by 1.5', photo hopefully here:https://photos.app.goo.gl/IZT6RsqMwQLt0nQY2).
.............

Any thoughts/wisdom?

The planks look like support for a gas fitting.
I'd never skim, I'd patch where necessary (polyfilla is fine, don't forget to wet the wall) and use a good quality lining paper and tub paste.

 

[Tc345]

Hello all,

We've been gradually removing wallpaper from the walls in our house revealing some pretty tidy plastering and a few oddities (including a few small planks of wood in the middle of a wall covering a space of approx 1' by 1.5', photo hopefully here:https://photos.app.goo.gl/IZT6RsqMwQLt0nQY2).
.............

Any thoughts/wisdom?

The planks look like support for a gas fitting.
I'd never skim, I'd patch where necessary (polyfilla is fine, don't forget to wet the wall) and use a good quality lining paper and tub paste.

It could be gas lamp support but there are various other places where there have been gas lamps with no wood to support them but where the wall construction is the same; brick, a cavity then lath and plaster. There could be another reason that this lamp required more support i suppose but we've also wondered if there's anything behind it, we may at some point remove a plank and see if there's anything behind as it looks to be held in place with old screws.

Regarding patching: This is what we've been doing until now as the plaster has been pretty good, just patching required and I've been using multi-finish for that and learning the various methods to get a good finish. A damp sponge is my favourite so far.

 

[Feltwell]

I take it you’re aware that Thistle Multi is not breathable? Makes no odds on internal walls of course and unlikely to do much harm if only a small area on an external. I’ve got used to using lime based plasters now.

 

[Tc345]

I take it you’re aware that Thistle Multi is not breathable? Makes no odds on internal walls of course and unlikely to do much harm if only a small area on an external. I’ve got used to using lime based plasters now.

Yep but as you say i just use it for a bit of patching/filling and mainly on internal walls. If i had to do larger bits then I'd get some lime but for smaller occasional filling its so much easier to grab some 'normal' plaster from a builder's merchant.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd question whether a 'thistle' plaster is really so much easier than using lime, especially for occasional small areas.

'Thistle' approach:
- trip to DIY shed to buy the plaster
- mix required amount for job in hand
- do the job with an inappropriate material
- half empty bag 'goes off' before it is next needed
- throw away bag and make another trip to the DIY shed
- repeat as required

Lime approach
- order tub of ready-mixed lime plaster
- do the job with the appropriate material
- unused material will never 'go off' and is always ready for next job at moments notice
-repeat as required

As easy as a tub of 'Polyfilla' really, but with the he added benefit of being the right stuff for the job.

 

[Tc345]

- unused material will never 'go off' and is always ready for next job at moments notice

A fair point well made!

 

[Pennyviz]

Interested - does lining paper affect breathability? or are we talking about on non- lime plaster?

Penny

 

[88v8]

I suspect that if one tries wallpapering over a 'breathing' wall, one is going to come unstuck.

Ivor

 

[Tc345]

We finished lining the walls last night and it was a lot easier than it could have been thanks to the tips received here, thanks all. Turns out my wife is great at making joins pretty much invisible and those that weren't have been rectified with judicious application of a tiny bit of polyfilla. The Erfurt Wallrock paper was great and we've now got a really lovely finish, so much so that there was brief discussion of not painting it!

Sizing then pasting the walls made the whole job a hell of a lot easier, as did cutting the paper to be slightly too long and then doing the fine trimming in situ up to the picture rail and down to the skirting board. Another advantage of the wallrock we got was that it was 1m wide so there were less joins to do but it did make cutting round the window and fireplace a little tricker.

Onwards to the carpet fitting later this week and then a more restful weekend I think.

 

[Feltwell]

Excellent - nice to hear the results, glad it all worked well for you.