Single skin construction

[Angie chandler]

I have just been advised a property I was hoping to buy has a flank wall of single skin construction and mortgage lender will not lend. If I am able to get a mortgage besides that problem can anyone advise if the property is likely to be very cold. It currently has electric storage heating which I would be planning to have gas central heating put in. Is this likely to be a problem in this type of property. Not sure whether to go ahead even if I am able to get a mortgage. Everything else in the property appears good.....new kitchen/conservatory/bathroom/double glazing/good roof insulation according to the EPC

 

[88v8]

This does come up now and then.
Funny, isn't it, that a house in which people have lived happily for decades or centuries is suddenly perceived as a 'problem'.

New kitchen bathroom conservatory dg, doesn't sound very promising to me, sounds as if it's been done over and most of its periodness erased.
Anyway, there was a thread here
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13120&p=178136&hilit=single+skin+wall#p178136

and if you login and Search on Single Skin, you will find more.
The general thrust is that one needs to use a mortgage broker, and the higher percentage one looks to borrow the less likely one is to succeed.

Yes, it will be a bit colder than a later house with a cavity wall. More so if the wall in question faces north. We have that situation in our (unheated) kitchen. Wear a wooly.

Ivor

 

[Angie chandler]

Thankyou Ivor. I should have said whilst new kitchen etc. I meant new units but all built around the features. All fireplaces still in bathroom lounge. Open fire all there. So it has all the charm but still worried about whether I can or should think of that wall being double skinned ? Have you got gas central heating in your non cavity wall house ?

 

[Abi Cott]

The kitchen extension (c. 1894 on a 1848 property) in my previous house was a single storey, single skin structure with no roof insulation. It was freezing in winter and boiling in summer, but insulating the roof made a considerable difference, so if yours isn't single storey or has in insulated roof I'd be less concerned.

 

[george2019]

Single skin as in 102.5mm half brick thick? Or just a solid wall?

Anything close to 100mm has a risk of water penetration if exposed to the elements, but isn't structurally a problem if it's been there for a while.

Certainly a bit cold but can be insulated.

 

[88v8]

Thankyou Ivor. I should have said whilst new kitchen etc. I meant new units but all built around the features. All fireplaces still in bathroom lounge. Open fire all there. So it has all the charm but still worried about whether I can or should think of that wall being double skinned ? Have you got gas central heating in your non cavity wall house ?

Oooh, a fireplace in the bathroom. We had a gas-coal in the bathroom of our previous house, it was lovely.

No CH here, We have storage heaters and a couple of wood burners. Our single skin kitchen is 4" timber, wattle & daub. Yes, it is a bit parky, but we only heat to 60F or so anyway. In the winter I wear three pairs of socks, T shirt, shirt, woolly, but of course I dress more warmly when I go out.

Is the wall one storey or two?

If the problem is insulation, the easiest solution may be to internally stud and insulate the wall, but there will be a loss of space, and features such as unique skirtings, picture rails, frieze mouldings, doorways, plumbing, wiring, windows etc may require careful treatment.
External insulation might be possible, again it depends on the house. If it's a terrace or a semi, probably not.
Otoh if the lender has concerns about the structural stability, then they should explain.

Will the lender agree to a mortgage with a retention pending rectification works?

Their willingness to depart from what's sometimes described as 'average houses for average borrowers' may depend on the LTV.
A good mortgage broker will be able to advise you. Ask the agent if they can recommend someone - they won't want to lose a potential sale.

Buying a house can be such a pain.
But bear in mind, you may wish to sell it again one day, and unless you cam eliminate the root cause, it will come back and bite you.

Ivor

 

[MatthewC]

Angie

How old is your property, where is it and is it listed or in a conservation area? If you are worried about the place being cold, you need to be aware of the state of the windows and doors, and also whether the property is at all damp.

Windows and doors - my house had probably the original windows (from 1860) and a lot of the putty was dead, allowing horrendous draughts (quite apart from the odd bit of missing glass!). Equally, the doors allowed massive draughts as well. These issues will be far more of a priority to address than trying to improve the insulation of your walls.

Dampness - If you have poor (blocked, broken, leaking or non-existent) rainwater goods and drains, or high ground outside (i.e. earth or concrete etc close to or above the floor level inside) then these will cause your house to be cold - the sort of bone-chilling cold which never goes away, even with massive heating bills! What happens is that any moisture in the house walls or floor is continually being converted to water vapour and this consumes a large amount of heat energy without ever getting rid of the moisture. The "latent heat of vapourization" is roughly defined (IIRC) as the quantity of heat energy required to change a liquid to a vapour without raising the temperature of the liquid.

You might like to study my blog one evening - click on the contact blob on the right and start at the beginning! Always happy to give specific advice.

Matthew

 

[Angie chandler]

Hi Matthew. Thank you for your reply. Sorry I’ve only just read it on here today. The property has two storey flank wall that surveyor says is single skin and only four inch brick. He said if it was 9 inch brick not such a problem. I’m getting so much conflicted advice about whether o should proceed with the property. The EPC said roof insulation very good and is double glazed. The flank wall that is single skin the mortgage company say has to have an extra skin put on it. The wall has the kitchen and upstairs shower room attached so they say it may have damp issues. I still can’t get my head round that it has stood since 1835 and looks absolutely fine inside. I can’t work out whether I need to have this work done or not. I’ve got a broker looking into finding a lender who will lend on it anyway. I guess if I am able to purchase it and move in I would need to see how cold or signs of damp ??

 

[88v8]

The property has two storey flank wall that surveyor says is single skin and only four inch brick. ....the mortgage company say has to have an extra skin put on it.

Urrgh
Two storey.
That's a biiiiig job.

First it will have to be underpinned.
Then wall ties will have to be cut in.
Then any plumbing or drainage will have to be extended or moved
The roof will have to be altered in some way.
Then the extra skin built on and cogged into the existing walls, needing matching bricks so here's another problem because the house was built of imperial bricks.
Then any windows & doors will have to be moved outwards so that's the interior messed up too.

Perhaps get a builder to look at it. They might have a magic answer.

But Angie, really, I'd walk away.
Even if you find a lender, you may want to sell one day and then it will come back and bite you.
Sorry.

Ivor

 

[Angie chandler]

Hello Ivor. I understand what you’re saying and yes you’re probably right but I’m told years ago mortgage companies would have lent on this and it’s the last 10 years they have jumped on this. That is a lot of work you have said Ivor .....can I just ask and excuse my ignorance on all this ....but why does this work need to be done if no one else who has lived in the property for 180 years has had to do this. I’m trying to understand what benefit I’m going to get aside from the issue with lenders but purely from me actually living in the property

 

[88v8]

.... why does this work need to be done if no one else who has lived in the property for 180 years has had to do this. I’m trying to understand what benefit I’m going to get aside from the issue with lenders but purely from me actually living in the property

Leaving aside that a 4" wall with lime mortar is rather flimsy, the benefit to you of a standard 9" wall, whether cavity or not, is insulation value and freedom from leaks.

Why is it a 'problem' for lenders? No really good reason.

A few;

- as said, single skin is not so stable, especially two storeys
= insulation value is lousy
- easy for water to penetrate, especially around openings
- and the killer... it's 'non-standard'. So the computer says No.

And once one lender says No, others follow in a race to the bottom.

No comfort to you, just how it is.
Even though how it is, ignores the 180 years.

Ivor

who's sitting beside a 400 year old wattle & daub wall with about as much insulation value as a paper bag. To which the computer says Yes.

 

[MatthewC]

Angie

It's a balanced question, isn't it? I would say that the only tangible benefit to you of buying this house is if you can buy it at a good price, with a huge discount on a sensible market price for a similar house without these problems. You need to have a saving at least of the cost of sorting the brickwork which will include beefing up the foundations (if any!) and you would also want a decent residue to cater for the unforeseen items which are bound to occur. On the intangible side you would have the pleasure (having saved it) of living in what sounds a lovely house.

You didn't answer my question as to whether it is listed or in a conservation area? Either of these is likely to add to your costs and possibly cause delay, and could then add to the negative side of the balance. Similarly, the fact that you need a mortgage of some size is a negative - I was able to buy and renovate mine from accumulated funds so never had to worry about mortgage companies.

But it's your call...

NB A 4" brick wall is generally called "half-brick" thickness and a 9" wall is called "single brick" thickness (because the dimension relates to the length of the brick, not its width). I once had a garage made of half brick thickness (with a few pillars) but living in it would have been VERY cold.

 

[Angie chandler]

Hi Matthew. Thank you for your reply. It is in a conservation area. Its a charming house and of course my heart has fallen for it ! But perhaps you are right and my head should rule in this case. I am buying alone since divorce so I can’t really afford for problems so do you think as I do want a period property perhaps a Victorian property with thicker cavity wall would be more reliable for me ? I still keep thinking though that it’s been single skin since 1835 and so is that not good enough ?

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm in much the same position as you Angie, getting back onto the property ladder after divorce.
Mine is 1829 and stone construction with a double skin wall with a rubble filled cavity.

There were some structural issues with the back wall when I bought it, which caused the first mortgage company to turn it down despite having offered me a mortgage in principle for well above the value.

I got a mortgage through the Ecology Building Society. They wanted a 20% deposit but loaned some money for the renovation costs as well as the purchase price.

I had a good idea of the two possible structural scenarios for the rear wall and approximate costs of both. Typically it turned out to be the more expensive one. The work has been completed and cost me about £4.5k which has somewhat delayed work in other areas of the building.

My building is both listed and in a conservation area.

Would I buy it again? Yes.

I went into it with a good idea of costs, and the implications of living in a conservation area and a realistic idea of how long I would be spending getting the house fully finished.

If you do your research and are happy with the costing of the project there is no reason to walk away, but make sure the rose tinted glasses are firmly put away in a drawer for the decision making process.

 

[Angie chandler]

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I wanted to add that the property is rendered with a yellow paint on the outside. Would this help with the insulation and possible damp that appears to be the issues with single skin. Also if there is damp in the property would this be hidden now in summer. Or does a surveyor pick this up.
Angie

 

[MatthewC]

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I wanted to add that the property is rendered with a yellow paint on the outside. Would this help with the insulation and possible damp that appears to be the issues with single skin. Also if there is damp in the property would this be hidden now in summer. Or does a surveyor pick this up.

Well, that depends on what sort of paint it is! If it's anything modern (e.g with that dreaded "vinyl" word) then the paint itself could be causing some problems as it could keep moisture in the wall. Paint of itself almost certainly will not help the insulation in any way, but it can hinder the natural working of a lime based wall.

As regards dampness in summer, please check what I said in about dampness in my post of Aug 9th:

Dampness - If you have poor (blocked, broken, leaking or non-existent) rainwater goods and drains, or high ground outside (i.e. earth or concrete etc close to or above the floor level inside) then these will cause your house to be cold - the sort of bone-chilling cold which never goes away, even with massive heating bills! What happens is that any moisture in the house walls or floor is continually being converted to water vapour and this consumes a large amount of heat energy without ever getting rid of the moisture. The "latent heat of vapourization" is roughly defined (IIRC) as the quantity of heat energy required to change a liquid to a vapour without raising the temperature of the liquid.

You need to check that it hasn't got any of these problems, or if it has then determine how you would eliminate it. You will need a surveyor with proper skills and understanding of old buildings, not someone who says what you want to hear but actually does not have that knowledge and experience. If you tell us where you are in the country, someone might recommend such a person.

Matthew

 

[Angie chandler]

Hi Matthew.

I’m in east Sussex. The property is near eastbourne.