Secondary Double Glazing

[masochists-r-us]

We live in a roadside listed building and over the years the traffic volume and noise has increased significantly. We have replaced all the windows in the house with single glazed ones as required, but now need to consider secondary glazing. Unsurprisingly no grants are available to help with the costs, but what I was pleased to hear is that no LBC is required and this came direct from our CO so thought this was information worth sharing. We have beautiful oak windows with traditional leaded lights and don't want to spoil our view of them so was wondering if anyone had experience of a cost effective supplier they could recommend.

 

[malcolm]

It's worth a forum search for secondary glazing as I keep asking this question too.

It is surprising how ugly all of the mainstream systems seem to be and how expensive they are. The most slimline system I found was from Storm Windows, but they wanted over £8000 to secondary glaze the house. Selectaglaze were around £5500 but used much bulkier aluminium frames. Duration Windows come in at about £3000 but still bulky frames and I would need to install them myself. I think the front of the secondary glazing frame could be hidden by a wood moulding which would make it less unattractive.

Acrylic sheet held on my magnetic tape would be cheaper still and lower profile, but acrylic won't help a lot with noise.

A few people have tried DIY solutions and I do wonder whether a bespoke carpenter made solution might be no more expensive than some of the aluminium ones, but I have yet to come up with a design I like.

 

[Lewis Tiffany]

We use to live about 80yards from the M56 motorway
At first the traffic noise wasn't to bad the over the years it became unbearable 24hours non stop .
The house was fitted with secondary glazing aluminium with draft seals and outer cast iron windows single glazed .
The noise levels stayed about the same even with everything closed .

We had double glazing put in shortly before we moved in order to sell the house , the noise almost disappeared after we had the windows fitted .

I wouldn't recommend secondary double glazing
The windows forever needed cleaning between the two windows.

Have a look a laminated acoustic glass
Its about 10mm thick and the possibility fitting into the existing frames if possible with EDM rubber seals .

 

[MatthewC]

Acrylic sheet held on by magnetic tape would be cheaper still and lower profile, but acrylic won't help a lot with noise.

A few people have tried DIY solutions ....

I used DIY acrylic sheet with a flexible strip round the edge and held on by screws and little nylon things. Slightly unsightly I agree, but pretty easy to do and relatively cheap as well. The only difficulty I had was cutting the stuff neatly, so see if you can get that done professionally! I think I bought evereything from these people http://www.tubeway.co.uk/easyfix-diy/secondary-glazing.html

I found the sound proofing was quite effective - I live beside a fairly busy street near the town centre which gets a lot of drunken foot traffic late at night, and we have hardly been disturbed since. I also have not found it necessary to clean them more than once per year (i.e. when removed for summer).

 

[mims&pip]

We use to live about 80yards from the M56 motorway
At first the traffic noise wasn't to bad the over the years it became unbearable 24hours non stop .
The house was fitted with secondary glazing aluminium with draft seals and outer cast iron windows single glazed .
The noise levels stayed about the same even with everything closed .

We had double glazing put in shortly before we moved in order to sell the house , the noise almost disappeared after we had the windows fitted .

I wouldn't recommend secondary double glazing
The windows forever needed cleaning between the two windows.

Have a look a laminated acoustic glass
Its about 10mm thick and the possibility fitting into the existing frames if possible with EDM rubber seals .

Our last house (a non-listed, Georgian thatched) was in a village on the A30. It had no front garden or forecourt but just a wide pavement between house front and road. Road noise was an issue from day one (as was the whole three storey building shaking every time an hgv went past breaking the 30mph limit :twisted: ), but it was only just prior to selling that we completed the final job of the major project - having hardwood DG sashes fitted to the lower two storeys of the front elevation. We specified acoustic glazing but imho this made very little difference to road noise. Had we intended to stay we'd have instead saved our £10k and put in secondary glazing instead.

Mims x

 

[88v8]

The air gap is crucial.
As wide as possible, but not more than 4" otherwise convection currents between the panes will suck out heat. The secondary glass should be thick. If you can run to quarter plate, so much the better, but do have the edges polished for ease of handling, or better still use laminated. Even better would be secondary sealed units.

Think what you want for the summer. If you want to be able to open the windows - perhaps not in view of the traffic noise/dirt - the inner panes need to be hinged.

I had secondary dg made for our previous house, with sealed units in solid brass frames. It was very effective in noise suppression. A metalworker made the frames for me to my design with hinges & catches I supplied, and I fitted the glazing myself.
One issue was that the window handles protruded beyond the thickness of the frames, so to allow for them I had to nail/glue extra thicknesses onto the original frames. That was relatively easy as my windows were painted so my alterations were not at all noticeable, your oak windows could be more of a problem but depending on your handles that may not arise.
It all needs a good deal of thought, especially if you don't have nets to blunt the visual impact, otherwise there could be a significant aesthetic degredation.

Another consideration, if you usually get condensation on the windows, no matter how you try to seal the secondary glazing there will be air leaks, and to minimise condensation between the panes there would need to be small air holes in the outer frames to eliminate suction from inside the house.

Ivor

 

[Penners]

I was pleased to hear is that no LBC is required and this came direct from our CO

I'm astonished! Some years ago I fitted secondary glazing to a listed building and the CO was very insistent that LBC was needed.

Acoustic insulation is a complex matter, and there is certainly no guarantee that secondary glazing will be a completely satisfactory solution to traffic noise. Noise can enter the house via any air pathway, so its attenuation can involve an array of measures, all aimed at shutting off any air route into the house. Even then, noise can be transmitted inside by the vibration of "leaf" structures, such as walls, floors and ceilings which, in turn, vibrate the air inside the house.

The problem is that, until you have fitted the secondary glazing units, you simply don't know how effective they will be at attenuating the traffic noise. They may be excellent - but there is also a risk that they could be less satisfactory.

Ivor's point about the gap between the primary and secondary glazing is an important one. For sound attenuation, it's also a good idea to line all four edges of the void between the two glazing leaves with acoustic matting.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I was pleased to hear is that no LBC is required and this came direct from our CO

I'm astonished! Some years ago I fitted secondary glazing to a listed building and the CO was very insistent that LBC was needed.

It all depends whether the work would affect the character of the building as one of special architectural or historic importance. I certainly would not advocate relying on the opinion of one CO in one particular case being a blanket statement to the effect that LBC is not required for secondary glazing.

 

[88v8]

It all depends whether the work would affect the character of the building as one of special architectural or historic importance. I certainly would not advocate relying on the opinion of one CO in one particular case being a blanket statement to the effect that LBC is not required for secondary glazing.

An unavoidable aesthetic issue is that it will change the external appearance of the house. The double reflection. Only at some times of day and in some lights, but nevertheless.

I have been gradually installing [removable] secondary here, not for noise but to combat condensation in which it has been only partially successful. With the exception of one window - where I will not install secondary - all our old glass was erased in the 70s or earlier so there is less visual impact than might have been the case with wonkly old leads &/or wavy glass, but impact there is.
Although like most changes, after a while one does not really notice.

Ivor

 

[Penners]

An unavoidable aesthetic issue is that it will change the external appearance of the house.

That's true, although you can reduce the deleterious visual impact by ensuring that any glazing bars in the secondary units exactly align with glazing bars in the primaries.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Thought I'd resurrect this as we're not the only ones still wrestling with this issue. As a update, we eventually bought one window from Selectaglaze: a slimline horizontal sliding sash with acoustic glass. It has been highly effective in reducing traffic noise, was cost effective, but aesthetically very ugly. They will supply in any colour, but this adds to the price and tbh we can't think of a colour that would work with our oak, leaded lights.
We like these https://www.bronzecasements.com/secondary-glazing.html but boy are they expensive. Apparently they are actually made of architectural bronze so perhaps this is why.

 

[Feltwell]

Useful, thanks. Those bronze casements look lovely with stone or dark timber original frames, but a little odd with white ones. The 2 pictures at the head of their website show a problem as well - the right hand picture in particular - the casements would protrude a long way into the room when opened, so how would you shut the curtains but leave the windows open on a hot night? You'd have to try and hook the curtains round them, which looks awkward.

It's the same problem with what I'm contemplating, though I can have the window split in 4 so it only intrudes half the distance into the room when opened.

Not surprised the bronze casements are expensive as well!