sash windows

[mark&Kay]

I have a town house dating from around 1800. I am about to replace my plastic windows with wooden sash. The local council are insisting that these should be hornless, however property of the same style in the local area all seem to have horns. My fitter also tells me that the windows of this date would have had horns.
Any views as to horned or hornless?

 

[Lime]

Apart from decoration "horns" joggles or whatever you wish to call them have two good purposes.
First they strengthen the wooden tenon joints from which they protrude (They are very important for the strength of the window) and second they prevent/limit the opening of the window.

All wooden windows would have had them apart from specific decorative limitations set by the designer.
e.g. prisons perhaps and anywhere where decorative features were to be discouraged. The joint would have to be altered or strengthened some other way.

 

[mark&Kay]

Apart from decoration "horns" joggles or whatever you wish to call them have two good purposes.
First they strengthen the wooden tenon joints from which they protrude (They are very important for the strength of the window) and second they prevent/limit the opening of the window.

All wooden windows would have had them apart from specific decorative limitations set by the designer.
e.g. prisons perhaps and anywhere where decorative features were to be discouraged. The joint would have to be altered or strengthened some other way.

That what I thought, regarding the extra strength, but the council are insisting on hornless! The house is not listed, but is in a conservation area. There are however over thirty properties in the vicinity that have non conforming ie. plastic or aluminium framed windows.
Sometimes I think the council make it up as they go along.

 

[biffvernon]

There's no hard and fast rule and practice varied in different places, much being left to the whim of the joiner. However, older windows, Georgian, houses built in 1800, tended not to have horns. Newer windows, Victorian, later 19th century, tended to have them. Of course your house may have had windows without horns for a hundred years and then had the sashes replaced, modernised, to keep up with the fashion conscious neighbours, with horned sashes. If your windows are to be divided into small panes, 'Georgian' style, I'd leave the horn off. For 'Victorian' style, divided perhaps in two or with just one big pane, horns might look appropriate.

Are you trying to restore the house to a particular moment in time, or to match the neighbours, or to make your house look good and fit for purpose in the 21st century?

 

[Ian Bond]

No need for horns with multi-paned sashes (6 over 6, 8 over 8 etc).

The sashes will be quite strong enough without. The conservation officer should be able to provide suitable guidance as to the correct design for your area.

Avoid double glazing for multi paned windows if you want to replicate fine glazing bars and avoid future problems with failing , misting up dg units.

Some useful info here, see section on double glazing:
http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery/index.html

 

[biffvernon]

All wooden windows would have had them apart from specific decorative limitations set by the designer.

In 'Elements of Style' Calloway says "By the mid-nineteenth century, sash windows have two brackets or 'horn' at each end of the bottom rail of the top sash. These help to strengthen the frame and support the heavier panes of glass."

I've had a look through my books and have failed spot a picture of a pre-Victorian window with horns.

If your conservation officer is attempting to restore an early 19th century townscape then a multi-pane window with no horns policy is justified.

 

[mark&Kay]

Due to the location (on a busy road with post 19century forty foot lorries) I am looking at getting double glazed. A local company can do wooden sash without horns with narrow bar that are English heritage approved. It would be nice to go single glazed but its a noisy real world that I live in.
So hornless it will be.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Nemesis]

Hornless is correct - but if you go DG with a narrow bar, it's probable the DG will fail.


Also - what do you mean. 'English Heritage approved'? Can I suggest you call EH and ask if indeed they have approved/endorsed this firm and these windows?

 

[Ian Bond]

You might be better off with secondary glazing for noise reduction, as long as it wouldn't be obstructing internal shutters or spoiling the window in some other way.

Your choice to fit dg, but not something I'd ever do - not too keen on having an re-glazing job to do when they fail in the future.

 

[Nemesis]

Agreed Ian - and also DG in order to have maximum sound reduction a larger space between panes than DG is required. Well fitted windows with draught proofing will cut down on noise anyhow.

Edinburgh World Heritage Energy Project is worth reading, it used a variety of methods, Storm Windows was the firm used for the secondary:


http://www.ewht.org.uk

 

[Ian Bond]

Due to the location (on a busy road with post 19century forty foot lorries) I am looking at getting double glazed. A local company can do wooden sash without horns with narrow bar that are English heritage approved. It would be nice to go single glazed but its a noisy real world that I live in.

Funnily enough, I also live in the real world of a noisy urban area, and my comments about double glazing and noise reduction are based on experience (mine and my neighbours).

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Charles Brooking told me on Friday (Crash! was that a name being dropped?) that he knows of sash horns from Ireland from about 1800, but in England they are practically unknown before c1840. So if your house is c.1800 it wouldn't have had horns originally but it might well have been refenestrated in the later nineteenth century.

There was also a general view that secondary glazing, properly fitted, is better at reducing noise from outside than DG.

 

[Moo]

The ornate listed building opposite us (busy urban street) had secondary double-glazing installed when it was converted into a hotel.

I can vouch for the effectiveness of the d-g: on the first floor, over the entrance, french windows open on to a small balcony; when there is a 'function' (aka over-amplified music) guests go out on to the balcony for a smoke and the noise is indescribable. We complain, they shut the doors, and we can't hear a thing. Then another guest opens the door, and we complain, and the door is shut...

 

[Nemesis]

I think the Brooking Collection is still in need of help:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article3563682.ece

 

[biffvernon]

in England they are practically unknown before c1840. So if your house is c.1800 it wouldn't have had horns originally but it might well have been refenestrated in the later nineteenth century.

Like wot I said

Since this is a case of replacing plastic, rather than historic fabric, much comes down to whether we are wanting to recreate a fake early 19th century townscape or produce a building that looks good and functions well for the 21st century. That's not impossible.

Sound insulation is an issue in this location and thermal insulation is an issue for anyone who intends to heat their house with what little is left of our fossil fuels. Consider triple glazing, an outer double glazed unit and an inner secondary glazing. The sealed unit should have a 16 mm argon filled gap, low emissivity coating ind insulated spacers. The secondary glazing, set back as far as practical, should be laminated glass with the two layers of different thickness, perhaps 3 and 4 mm.

 

[Nemesis]

As opposed to what - a 'fake' mid 19th century townscape?

 

[Nemesis]

In reality, heat loss from small, single glazed windows in historic buildings (in conservation areas) which fit well is not a major issue. Secondary glazing, draughtproofing, and shutters all help.

Presumably the council is doing its best to try to retain the historic interest and character of the conservation area, and when owners seek to remove the inappropriate windows, they are being asked to install something more suitable. The CO and the council presumably have adopted some policies on that.

 

[Ian Bond]

There's nothing 'fake' at all about making aesthetically pleasing windows, of the historically correct style. It's just as 'fake' to attempt to make double glazed windows match an historic style.

However there is something decidedly wrong with building in obsolescence to something that should last centuries. Single glazing, backed up with shutters or secondary glazing could last centuries.

The double glazing units will certainly fail within a decade or two, and probably get chucked away. Along with the rest of the window. Who wants to go the trouble of endlessly replacing lots of small sealed dg units as they fail one after the other?

 

[biffvernon]

As opposed to what - a 'fake' mid 19th century townscape?

Why have anything fake? Retain all historic fabric, repair historic fabric using traditional methods and materials, but make new stuff new. Good design for the present and future which will be regarded as worthy of conservation in the next century.

 

[Ian Bond]

Fitting 12 or 16 individual sealed units into each window doesn't seem to be good design to me, and neither does sticking on fake glazing bars to replicate small panes.

If you must make 'new stuff new', then reserve it for new buildings by all means, but let's not spoil historic ones with inappropriate windows.