Sash windows -- various

[fernicarry]

So, three years after the new kitchen was fitted I'm finally getting around to finishing the decorating. This is the first time ever I've painted sash windows and the first time I've looked closely at ours. The two in the kitchen are in generally good nick and have been draft proofed but I'm not very impressed with some of the details.

The parting beads are a really horrible looking plastic two part thing. One part fits into the rebate -- but not that well evidently as it is screwed and caulked in -- and the second part which carries the brush strip fits into the first. The join between the two is very, very noticeable and it all looks very plasticky. They might blend in a bit more if I paint them but I'd prefer to replace them with the wooden ones with the brush already routed in. Currently the brush strip is in two parts, the top has a single brush facing out and the bottom part has brushes pointing both ways. Can I get ready made wooden ones like this? I could probably just about manage routing out a slot for an extra strip at the bottom if not. Or is it more common to fit the wooden bead in two parts and just reverse the brush side to suit the top and bottom sashes?

Also cheap and nasty are the pulleys, on one of the two at least which seems to have a recently replaced case, the other pulleys are painted over, grrr, I hate painted over fittings. They are ordinary steel with plain bearings but the faceplaces are 110mm long (4 3/8"?) as opposed to the apparently much more common 4 5/8". Wheels are 1 3/4". Would like to swap them for something a bit more classy with ball bearings but don't particularly want to cut out a new rebate if can be avoided. Google has only found rectangular ones in that size but need radiussed. Anyone know of a source for this size?

This window also doesn't have enough weight to hold the bottom sash up properly which I initially ignored but now I think I need to pop off my nicely primed staff bead to get at the pocket. Is it normal to caulk between the staff bead and the box? All of these have been so it'll make a right mess taking them off. Scottish profile if it makes any difference.

And the final oddity is the lifts, a pic would be worth a thousands words here. They are the ring type but the flat plates that fit against the bottom rail aren't particularly square (0.5 - 1mm difference in width at opposite ends), the screw holes aren't on the same level and no two of them seems to be the same size or shape! They seem to be in two parts with a noticeable join between the ring and the plate. They've been there a good while judging by the layers of paint and the very dark colour. Unfortunately whoever last fitted them did a horrible job with the fixing holes and failed to compensate for the squintness so they are way off the vertical. Need to fill and re-drill to get them straight, in which case I'm tempted to replace them which would be a real shame given their obvious age. I thought maybe it was a front-of-house, back-of-house thing but all the windows are the same except the big room which looks like its already been treated to new ones.

Sigh, I knew there was a reason to keep putting this off but now I'm committed...

-Alan

 

[Lime]

The parting bead should be one continuous piece, otherwise the security of the window is substantially reduced.

I prefer wood parting beads that are well fitting to both the parting bead slot and the sashes.
I had the beads on all my windows made up specially as the popular ready-made type is far too small.
I use small headless nails to hold them in place, drill the bead if necessary beforehand and make sure you can hit the nail position when the sashes are in place!

Putty is my preferred caulk.
Don't over-do the filling.
A quick blow over with a hot air gun and it softens enough to remove most parts when servicing the window.

I much prefer the original pulleys to anything available today.
They were built to last.
Take them out of the window (using a hot air gun) and bake or burnt the paint off them.
Paint them before fitting but don't over-do it.
Squirt lots of oil into them once in place to ensure they move freely and will not corrode for a while.
Oil them every time you re-paint the window or replace the cords.
They will last forever.

The problem with the window weights has been created because that particular pane of glass was replaced at some time with a heavier/thicker sheet.
You may have enough room to add lead collars to the top of the weights or you may need to have new weights made up.
Sometimes you may be lucky and find heavier weights in a reclamation yard.
there is usually a number on the side of the weights in lbs.

Window furniture is still available and is often better made than the original..... but not always.
(keep the old intact ones if they are nice, you may want to reuse them at sometime for another window.)

 

[fernicarry]

Thanks Lime. The pulleys I'm referring to are recent so nothing to lose. This whole window has been replaced judging by the colour of the wood and the thinness of the paint so that would explain why the sash is now too heavy for the weights. Would still love to find better quality pulleys if they can be had in that size.

Hard to believe someone would do all that work but leave the window in a state where it doesn't stay open...

 

[fernicarry]

Right, got one of the staff beads off and the sashes out of the case. Must have been a whole tube of caulk on it...

First thing that strikes me is there is about a quarter inch gap between the pulley stile and the inside lining. There's quite a bit of flex in the pulley stile as I found levering off the staff bead (two inch oval nails, a bit excessive?) particularly around the pocket. That can't be right? I could fire some screws in but that would risk pulling them together and distorting the inside lining. The only other thing I can think of is a thick bead of some filler/glue/gunk down the gap to stiffen it up.

The pocket door was partially behind both staff bead and parting bead so it wouldn't come out without both removed. Looks like it was just cut down the middle of the rebate rather than along the edge of it. Doesn't sound like a massively good recipe for future maintenance. Worth trimming it back on the parting bead side?.

And with the sashes all the way up, the top of the weights is still higher than the top of the pocket. Not by a lot but enough to make it awkward to reach the knots. Should the cords be a bit longer? As it stands it'll be a two-man job to hold everything whilst I untie the weights so wont be able to get any further adjusting the balance this week. So much for the kitchen being painted by the time everyone gets back...

No evidence of a parting slip either but haven't noticed the weights banging together.

Sigh, I thought this would be my best window since its obviously the most recently replaced but its not done to a particularly high standard.

 

[Lime]

There is a diagram in this link that may be useful when describing parts of the sash window.
https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/sash-windows-guide/

The box frame (in which the weights hang) consists of 3 planks of timber making up the 'outer’, ‘inner’ and ‘pulley’ linings.
They should fit snugly together with no gaps between them.

It is quite normal for the weight access/pocket door to be held in place by both beads.
Don't be tempted to nail the door in place.

When I replace sash cords I thread the cord through the pulley down into the box frame.
(A length of string with a small weight at one end and the cord attached to the other end will aid threading the cord into and down the box frame.)
Tie the cord to the respective weight and pull it up as far as it will go.
With a very sharp thin nail (long enough to bridge the pulley cord hole) pierce the cord as near to the pulley as possible to hold the cord in place and stop the weight descending.
Do that for all four weights before nailing the cords to the sashes.

 

[fernicarry]

I think I know what happened to this window now. When we redid the kitchen we stripped the room bare (there was nothing historic to lose) and a local building company refitted the internal studwork.

It looks like when they were doing the reveal for this window they attached the studs to the inside lining on the left side a bit too enthusiastically and thats whats split it off from the pulley stile. I can see how it has moved relative to the top board. This in turn has loosened the staff bead off the sash so the sash moves more freely and is more likely to drop. Having temporarily put the staff bead back on, the window is holding much better but could still do with a little more weight.

Sadly, at the weekend I started picking at the putty on one of the panes at the front of the house and before long half of it was on the ground...

 

[Feltwell]

I use wooden parting beads from Reddiseals, and I do fit them in two halves, with brush strip pointing out at the top and in at the bottom. The sash meeting rail hides the join. No security problem I find - I don't pin them in either - with a tight fit and then some paint over the join, they would be very hard to remove from outside.

If the parting bead slot is knackered or too wide, reddiseals do a plastic U channel to reclaim it - I use a little hand held Palm router to machine the old groove out to 10mm wide, then fit one of these plastic channels in, and hey presto you've got a tight fitting 8mm groove ready for a new parting bead - its a totally invisible repair, the bead goes in tight with no caulk required.

Reddiseals do a good range of wooden staff and parting beads with premachined carriers for brush pile, as do Mightons. Both do sash pulleys in various sizes, not sure if they do the one you're after. I've had ball bearing sash pulleys from Mightons and they're a nice item but are a bit shiny and new looking. My original ones really had had their day - they were just worn out, the axles having worn the side plate holes into long ovals. Broughtons of Leicester are mostly a lighting supplier but do some very nice sash window furniture, including pulleys, which I've bought and which look old, although dimensionally I found they did vary quite a bit.

For sash weights you can get "make weights" to add to your existing ones again from either Reddiseals or Mightons, or they both sell new weights, in steel or lead. Steel is a lot cheaper if you can take the slight extra bulk for the same weight.

The Mighton "Grabba" makes taking the sashes in and out a hundred times easier - not very period I know, but they are totally hidden when in use, and are so much easier than faffing around nailing sash cord to the side of the sashes whilst trying to support the window. They really do work very well so long as you're happy to use that type of polypropylene sash cord. Much better than waxed cotton, they don't rot or stretch, if you can live with the slight visual difference.

 

[fernicarry]

Thanks for the reply.

I now have some wooden parting beads from DraftFix and started fitting them earlier in the week. The slot for the bead is quite tight so they fit in nicely and shouldn't need pinning in place. I've put a bevelled join in the middle which was planning to glue for strength but with the tight fit that's probably unnecessary. It would also be somewhat useful to only need to remove the bottom half of the bead to get at the weight pocket. Based on half a window done so far the result is *much* more satisfactory than the old plastic beads.

Question: should I mitre the top corners? This would allow the brushes to go round the corner continuously but I cant find any close-ups of how its typically done. I suspect a butted join is more common.

I saw a youtube video of a restorer making his own lead weights by rolling up roofing lead so I will try his technique. I have some old lead pipe that might just fit over the cord and then I can wrap some roofing lead over that.

The Mighton Grabba and their Cordclam look like very helpful devices. Why don't they work with cotton cord, too slippy? I haven't taken the sash off its cord yet and tbh a bit apprehensive about bashing nails into it when re-attaching. Was thinking perhaps short screws with penny washers instead of nails?

The only pulleys I've found to match the size of the existing ones are from Croft but they are all special order, not to mention rather pricey. No doubt they are things of great beauty. I would still need to square off the recess as they aren't radiused. Having now invested in an oscillating saw I'm going to take another look at opening up the recess to take a standard sized pulley.

 

[Feltwell]

Not quite sure what you mean with the mitring. Usually the parting beads only run up the sides of the sash box - no parting bead at the top or bottom, so the side parting beads just end square - although I appreciate local variances may mean yours are different. I rout a very narrow groove in the top of the top sash and the bottom of the bottom sash and use a bubble seal (from Reddiseals) to seal them. Strictly speaking you don't need to bother at the bottom, as the staff bead brush seal does the job, but I find it helps keep any water from being blown too far under the bottom of the bottom sash - always a vulnerable point for rot.

I also stop the bottom parting bead just shy of the cill, to make sure water can't get trapped behind it.

Doing it this way means that you do get a small gap at the top sash between the parting bead brush seal and the bubble seal on top of the sash itself, but it doesn't really matter - you'll never get (or want for that matter) a perfect seal. I rout a groove and insert a brush seal carrier at the meeting rail.

After the job is all done, and the staff beads have brush seals in them too, I find the main residual draft comes through the sash pulleys - but it's not enough to worry about.

For your sash pulleys, you may well find that the opening for the pulley wheel itself doesn't need to be touched, it's just the recess for the face plate which needs to be enlarged, which is an easy job with good sharp chisel.

I think the Grabbas only work with the polyprop cord as its texture is a bit coarse and the waxed cotton stuff would be too slippy. Not sure about the cam cleats, look like they'd do the same job though. The Grabba does need a quick whizz with a router to create a recess for it in the side of the sash, I do it for all mine now, it just makes life taking the sashes in and out so much easier and they're very cheap. For one particularly large and heavy window I did put a screw & washer through the cord below the Grabba just as backup, though I doubt it will be needed, they grip very tight and the design means the harder the cord is pulled the more they grip.

With weights, I'm not sure it's worth the faff of making your own, but up to you! I have found that "feathers" - a thin strip of loosely floating wood between the weights inside the sash boxes to stop them hanging up on each other as they travel up and down - are a bit of an essential. Fitting them though could be a problem if they're missing unless you're doing major surgery to the sash box, you won't get them in through the sash pockets. If nothing else then angle the top and bottom of the weights so if they do catch each other inside the box then they'll push off each other and not "hang up" - one of my windows was a real pain for that until I did major repairs to it and added some feathers at the same time.

Hope that helps!

 

[fernicarry]

Usually the parting beads only run up the sides of the sash box - no parting bead at the top or bottom

Interesting, all our windows have a parting bead along the top. Can't say if they've always been that way or if it was done when the plastic draft strips were put in. Anyway. I've put a new wooden one across the top as well as down the side and mitred the corners and its all looking rather nice.

I'm thinking of attaching the cords using the crimp on grips that are used for simplex conversions. Any downside to that? I guess they might not be robust enough for heavy sashes but these kitchen ones aren't too large.

No progress this weekend, the gardening season has kicked off...

 

[Feltwell]

I think it's a case of "use what you see is fit" - so long as the cord is held tight and can't "creep" over time it'll be fine.

I'd say your parting bead at the top is original - it would be a pig of a job to accurately cut the slot it sits in with the window in-situ, but easy before the box frame was assembled. Just what the original joiner thought looked right I guess, and although the bead would have served no purpose originally, it makes your draft-proofing a little easier now!

 

[fernicarry]

Managed to get a couple of afternoons in during this week. Fitted new pulleys after opening up the holes a bit. A job that was made massively easier with the multi-tool. The new ones roll lovely and smoothly compared to what was there.

Took the bottom sash out to weigh it and found that it is 12kg whilst the weights are currently about 8kg, so quite some difference to make up! I've stuck an extra 1lb on each side as thats what I got from Mightons and I'm hoping that since it was nearly balanced before that will be enough. I know the rule of thumb is half the weight and subtract a pound but the weatherseals must introduce a lot of friction.

I've re-attached the cords with grippa's from Mighton. They're slim enough to go into the slot without modification and the cord seems to be secure enough although its a bit awkward to get it to feed through. Certainly makes it a breeze to whip the sash out for a quick coat of paint! A bonus is that they are too big to go through the pulley so stop the cord disappearing after disconnecting the sash, better than using the grotty mole grips that usually see service on the car. Didn't notice they come in packs of 4 so now have a few spares....

This window looks like it was made by Ventrolla. All the weatherstrips have that printed on the base and there is 'vent' and a number penciled on the side of the lower sash. They probably also did the draft-proofing on the rest of the house. I remember the sellers proudly telling me that the windows had been 'professionally' draft proofed. Can't understand why this particular one was replaced though, its in a very sheltered location, I don't think i've ever seen a rain drop on it, and actually it seems to be sitting on an older cill. Talking of which, is it normal for there to be a bead of putty between the wooden cill and the stone cill? I broke away something that was kind of like old putty when I was scraping back the paint.

The ventrolla brushes and carriers are quite big and chunky compared to the stuff I've been buying so will be interesting to see how well the new ones perform. I can't fault the ventrolla stuff on performance its just the aesthetics of the plastic parting beads I objected to as well as some of the brushes being a bit tired, painted over etc.. Have noticed that the meeting rail doesn't quite pull together on the left side so there is a bit of a draft there. Need to try to source longer brushes to fit this carrier.

Now to get started on the other one so I can finally sign off on the long-running kitchen refurb and get back to my nearly as long-running bathroom refurb...