Sash windows - unstuck now, but odd?

[TimHardusty]

Given that it's a lovely day, I decided it was time to remove the paint on one of downstairs painted-shut sash windows.

The bottom sash freed up quite easily but the upper one had a lot more paint on it, so I ended up removing the lower sash and the strips (sash strips? running strips? I'm sure they have a proper name lol) and found that the top one had been nailed closed - a single nail each side in the bit that sticks downwards each side in the sash runner.

On closer examination Ithen realised it had no sash cord assembly - no pulleys, no cord, no wheel in the casing.

The (wooden) window was custom made (well before our ownership) and had CO approval etc.

It's 30 years since I lived in a (Victorian) house with sash windows and although I rebuilt one of those I really have no recollection of what it was like.

Is it common to either not bother with an opening top sash - in which case why bother to make it so it actually could slide and open? Or is it actually common or even usual to not have sash cords on the top sash, and it was just nailed shut for some other reason?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yes, earlier sash windows didn't have an opening top sash but I think this is from a time when the weights and pulleys weren't used either and something had to be wedged under the bottom sash to hold it open. I'm surprised that a sash box would be made with weights and pulleys for the bottom sash only but I'm sure all sorts of combinations exist. The bit that extends beyond the horizontal is a horn, it makes the joint stronger and I can't see why it would be needed if the sash didn't move so perhaps the window was just made to a budget when remade rather than being a true copy of the original. The other beads are the parting bead between the sashes and the stop bead or staff bead holding the bottom sash in.

 

[TimHardusty]

Thanks for the explanation of the bead names

I remember sticks holding windows open beak when I was a "yoof" lol.

The top sash would definitely move if I removed the 2 nails. But I think we will enjoy the fact we can at least open the lower sash now, and leave the upper nailed shut until such a time as I have the time and patience to rebuild it...more pressing matters to attend to first!

 

[Feltwell]

So you haven't actually taken the top sash out then?

I'm a little suspicious that your top sash has been nailed shut through the horn - it's common for that to have been done, but usually because the cords have broken and someone can't be bothered to replace them, not as part of the original construction of the window. Non-opening top sashes aren't that unusual but I wouldn't usually expect to have seen them held in place by something so crude as a nail through the horn.

If you haven't taken the top sash out, how can you be so sure that no pulley or recess for a pulley exists? Could you see enough down the side of the sash when the parting bead was removed?

My neighbour swore blind that the top sash of our attic room windows never opened, but when I removed mine the recesses for the pulleys were there, and the remains of the cords were still nailed to the sides of the sash.

 

[TimHardusty]

Hmmm...I ran a thin blade up the side of the sashs, and felt for cords etc., but from what you've pointed out, I now realise it only shows there are no sash cords present *now*. I couldn't see if the pulley was present. Doh!

I will investigate further as it would certainly be good to get the top sash working I will be replacing the lower sash cords as they are rather heavily impregnated with paint, so will make sure I have enough to sort the top sash too...but, assuming the pulley is present, next challenge will be to retrieve the weight!

 

[Feltwell]

assuming the pulley is present, next challenge will be to retrieve the weight!

That's usually easy enough. There should be a "pocket" - look at the sides of the box frame, usually about 4" or so up from the bottom, there should be a rectangular cover set into the frame. Take the parting beads out - they run across the cover - then free it off by scoring round the outside as it will almost certainly be painted shut. If it's stuck then don't try levering it out, you'll just cause damage, I usually drive a screw into the cover then gently lever it out using a nail bar against the frame with bit of scrap timber for protection.

Once the sash pocket cover is out then you can get to the weights. I'd offer money that you'll find the weights for the top sash sat in the bottom of the frame with the remains of rotten sash cords still attached!

If you're doing all this then personally I'd take the trouble to replace the parting and staff beads for ones with brush draft proofing seals in, sold by the likes of Mightons and Reddiseals - also check if the pulleys need replacing, and if the weights are the right weight.

Old glass often gets replaced with heavier modern glass and the weights don't always get changed. The weights for the top sash should be 1/2 - 1lb heavier than the sash, and the weights for the bottom sash should be 1/2 - 1lb lighter than the sash. You can add "makeweights" to the existing weights to make them heavier.

I also machine with a router a brush seal carrier into the meeting rail and top rail when I overhaul a sash window.

The difference afterwards is remarkable - the windows here that I've overhauled glide up and down so smoothly, the brush seals in the beads do more than just keep the drafts out. The windows I haven't overhauled yet are as rattly as hell and very stiff to open or close!

 

[TimHardusty]

Again, the advice is much appreciated. For when I come to refurb. this window (and its sibling, the other side of the front door), the addition of brush seals makes sense

As far as the brushes on the meeting and top rails, would you do both of these on the top sash, or would you put one on the meeting rail of the bottom sash? Maybe it doesn't matter.

FInal question (for now, lol): when overhauling sashes that are basically sound, would you strip the paint back to bare wood to minimise paint build up? They don't seem too bad, but the most recent coat is peeling off in places to reveal sound paint underneath (as best as I can tell so far), so my guess is that the previous coat was not keyed very well.

 

[88v8]

You might consider chains instead of cords. I fitted them to our sashes in 1981. Everlasting.
And not 'new'. They have them at Hampton Court.
http://www.mightonproducts.com/products/sash-window-hardware/sash-cord-and-chains/sash-chain-accessories?gclid=CJrhuOOQtb4CFdShtAodbl4ACA

Flat pulley to match
http://www.mightonproducts.com/products/sash-window-hardware/sash-pulleys/sash-pulleys-finish/brass-pulleys/brass-pvd-face-plate-2-square-groove-brass-wheel-round-ends

Ivor

 

[Feltwell]

As far as the brushes on the meeting and top rails, would you do both of these on the top sash, or would you put one on the meeting rail of the bottom sash? Maybe it doesn't matter.

I have an absolutely tiny router bit which I machine a groove with across the top of the top sash. As I have a whacking great reel of the stuff left over from an old job, I actually fit a bubble seal rather than a brush seal there, as it's a compression rather than sliding action it needs to cope with.

http://www.reddiseals.com/product/timber-bubble-seals/

For the meeting rail, I machine a groove with a special router bit for a carrier for a brush seal. I do this on the bottom sash - you could do it on the top, doesn't really matter, but if you do it on the bottom then it doesn't show on the inside when you have the window open - the brush seal does go grubby over time. They'd be easy to replace though, just slide them out of the carrier.

http://www.reddiseals.com/product/centre-leg-pile-carrier/

You don't need to do the bottom of the bottom sash, as the staff bead brush takes care of that.

One very dedicated person on here put brush seals on the sides of the sashes themselves to make them truly invisible when the window was in use, but that wouldn't work on my windows, they are far too out of square!

Painting - up to you. When I overhaul mine I strip back to bare wood and use linseed paint on the outside, and use ordinary Dulux on the inside, just because it dries so much quicker than linseed. Whatever you do don't paint the sides of the sashes - they are meant to be left bare.

Cords vs chains - up to you, I use cord but I use modern nylon rather than waxed cotton, so it won't rot.
http://www.reddiseals.com/product/nylon-sash-cord/

I also fitted the Mighton "Grabba" rather than nailing the cord on - you don't have to, I just find it much easier than nailing the new cord in place.

http://www.mightonproducts.com/grabba-pack-of-4

I also replace the pulleys with decent ball bearing ones - mine are all very worn on the spindles.

http://www.mightonproducts.com/prod...-plate-2-square-groove-brass-wheel-round-ends

They are many different ways to overhaul sashes, I'm not saying my way is the right way and you might not want to do all of the above. All this lot takes quite a while to do and I have to board the window up whilst the linseed paint on the sashes dries over several coats, but the end result is very good. It takes a while though - which is no doubt why I've still got lots of windows to do, this house has a lot of sashes, many rooms have two or even three windows!

 

[TimHardusty]

Aha - across the top of the sash: I'd visualised the inside faces...doh!

I really appreciate you taking the time to describe how you go about this, many many thanks. When I do something, I like to go about it properly and try and do my best imitation of a "proper" job, so information such as you have provided is invaluable.

I knew I'd have another question :lol:. Having looked at the Reddiseals (and Mighton) sites, I see there is a twin timber parting bead. I can't really work out what it is from the picture, but it has made me realise that the bead will surely need a seal on one face for the lower sash and the other face for the upper? Perhaps that's what this product is?

Or is it done by using two half-height pieces, with the brush on opposite sides of each? Or am I missing the point?

 

[Feltwell]

Or is it done by using two half-height pieces, with the brush on opposite sides of each?

That's what I've done, seems to work OK! I didn't know quite what to do when I did my first window, so I did that with the joint hidden by the top of the bottom sash when the window is closed.

The "twin" parting bead is a new one, not seen that before, looking at the picture it's what you think it is - a parting bead with pile carriers fitted on both sides rather than just one. It might be a better idea although you would see the brush pile on the inside of the top bead when the window is shut. Similarly when I started the "Sofseal" bubble wasn't available, it was "weatherpile" brush pile only - but I would have thought the brushpile is better in a sliding application, and Sofseal in a compression application.

 

[TimHardusty]

I guess the brush makes for better sliding if fitted all the way up/down...or could only fit half-lengths of brush, with a blob of something to stop the lengths moving?

 

[rogerh]

Tim, see my post here:

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14609

None of my five original top sashes appear to have been intended to open (bottom sashes open normally, though). There's no provision for cords or weights and where a void would be expected is solid stone. They were fixed in place with a nail in each corner and wooden slats underneath. There were also no parting beads as no need for them. However two of four windows had been fitted with sash balances (see http://www.mightonproducts.com/products/sash-window-hardware/sash-balances and I plan to fit these to those still nailed up.

 

[rogerh]

The bit that extends beyond the horizontal is a horn, it makes the joint stronger and I can't see why it would be needed if the sash didn't move so perhaps the window was just made to a budget when remade rather than being a true copy of the original...

Just one of my top sashes had horns (and I'm pretty sure it's an original sash as you can see where the glazing bars have been sawn off!). When I removed the two strips of wood supporting the sash from below I was a bit surprised when the horns came too. The first time I thought it had snapped off but on closer examination it turned out that both horns were fixed to the slats below, not the sash. Perhaps it was thought fashionable to have them (and it's the only window visible from the street).