Sash windows - restore or double glazing? Help please

[Chorlton]

Hello

I wish to improve the sound and draught proofing of my original sash windows in my bedroom as I have a cracked pane of glass. Two windows in my bedroom. Both windows are in excellent working order but can be draughty and whilst I live on a relatively quiet road would like the sound proofing to be better. They have the original glass (not sure what it's called but slightly 'wobbly' look to it.)

I had a specialist sash window family company visit me yesterday and they said if I wanted them to be double glazed it would be cheaper (approx. £500 each, therefore £1000 overall) to remove the box and install new wooden boxes with the double glazing.

Originally all I wanted was to have draught proofing and sound proofing and a bit of general restoration (which they can do for either £180 or £280 for each window). As my wooden box sashes are in excellent condition and the original sashes, my thoughts are it's a shame to have them replaced but if I keep my existing sashes they said I couldn't have the double glazing as it's more cost efficient to install new boxes with the double glazing glass. How do I know whether I could have double glazing in my original sashes? Is it a case of trying to find another sash window specialist and seeing if they could double glaze my original sashes?

I am awaiting the written quotes for the work and am planning on viewing other work they have done in my neighbourhood but I'd be grateful to hear whether the double glazing is so much better than going for the full restoration of my windows. (But at present with the company who has been to see me if I wanted double glazing I could not keep my original sashes.)

My dilemma is if I go for double glazing will I regret having my original sash windows replaced or if I have go for full restoration will I suffer from not having the same level of sound and draught proofing that I would get with double glazing.

My thoughts at the moment are try and find a company that will double glaze my sashes and do general draught proofing too but how would I know whether my existing sashes could go from holding a single pane of glass to double glazing? And then is this prone to misting?

Please any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

Thank you

 

[MdB]

First off, welcome to the forum and thanks for posting here before doing anything. If you look through the threads here, you will find a lot of angst regarding people replacing perfectly good windows that have been in the house for hundreds of years with modern replacements which will only last 10 or 20 years on a good day. I've got the dreaded plastic here and just wish I had the original wooden ones.

Second, is your house listed? This affects what you are allowed to do.

It is very unlikely that you will be able to fit double glazed unit into your current sashes sensibly. Biff will probably be along shortly to give you the expert opinion but basically double glazing will be too thick and the seal around the edge will show.

If not listed, new sashes with double glazing may be an option but you will lose you lovely wobbly glass and the windows won't look the same as they currently are as the profile will change. If listed, you probably won't be allowed DG.

The option which I think most people here would suggest, is to repair what you have currently got. Possibly fitting draft proofing and then secondary glaze. This won't be as good as DG for heat loss (though it will greatly help) but it will be better for sound proofing.

Biff is the expert here on windows here and will hopefully correct anything I've got wrong.

(oh and our 13 year old plastic DG has had quite a few units pop - condensation between the panes which can't be removed and hence they need replacing)

 

[Chorlton]

Thank you for your quick reply and your welcome to me. I haven’t had chance to read other posts but I most definitely will do but wanted to hear advice regarding my dilemma as quickly as possible.

My house is not listed as some houses in my road have white uPVC windows and others still have sashes. I have heard of secondary glazing but if I’m honest I’m having trouble trying to picture what it looks like and I guess I think this may look ‘messy’ from inside my bedroom.

I know from an environmental point of view heating should be a priority but if I’m honest yes it’s a concern but ideally and in probably this order, is trying to retain as many of the original features of my house as possible (it was built c. 1905 and still has virtually all the original features, i.e. original fireplaces in nearly all the rooms etc), second is sound proofing and then third is heat retention.

My thoughts at the moment are going for the full restoration of both sashes (at a cost of £280 each) as this will mean I keep the original wooden box sash (and I’m sure the wood, over 100 years older is better than anything you can get now) but I desperately need to hear experts’ opinions on this matter before I do something I will regret forever.

I still need to get one pane of glass replaced though which is cracked. Does anybody know the nearest match to the ‘wobbly’ glass I currently have?

 

[MdB]

With those views, you will go down well in this forum

"Wobbly" seems to be the term here used for this sort of old glass. You will find some useful stuff using it as a search term. Searching for "secondary glazing" will help you too. Unfortunately, I'm not an expert at all on this so can't really comment myself.

(oh and don't worry if this thread goes off on a complete tangent and starts discussing the pros and cons of fridge magnets. It seems to happen on every thread, just post again to bring it back on subject.)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Please don't get rid of lovely old windows!

Have you got thick curtains up to help with sound-proofing? And ear plugs?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

For sound-proofing, you'll find that secondary glazing is considerably better than double glazing (though its practicality will depend in part on whether you have nice panelled window reveals and/ or shutters). Some secondary glazing is now far less clumsy and visible than it was 10 or 20 years ago. Various firms will draughtproof and overhaul the existing windows for you (some - including the best-known - much more expensive than others although the methods used tend to be very similar).

Anyway, fridge magnets. I like the ones with basic shopping list items on them, that way I can ignore what my fridge says and buy junk...

 

[DaveBrigg]

I suspect that you won't get many votes for ripping out the old windows here. I'm not sure what constitutes an 'expert' opinion though - secondary glazing, new units or doing nothing are all feasible, so the choice will come down to your personal preferences. I have DIY secondary glazing crafted from a sheet of acrylic screwed to the frame. Not the most elegant solution, although the side edges are hidden by curtains so it is not too noticeable. It definitely cut down the draughts and has reduced noise from outside. It is possible to get a high standard of draught proofing by having draught-excluder type brushes fitted to existing sashes; possibly it is this which is being offered by the company you spoke to. At the end of the day, if you try these options they may well give the result you are looking for, and no harm will be done if you are still not happy - if you get the windows replaced, it cannot be reversed.

'Wobbly' glass comes in different strengths of 'imperfections'. Georgian style glass can be bought from Tatra glass; they call it 'restoration glass'. However, if your house dates from 1905 this may be a little too distressed. Another option is horticultural glass, of the sort used for greenhouses, which can have minor imperfections.

 

[Moo]

We've been dangling from the horns of much the same dilemma as you for nearly a dozen years now:

Curtains, in many ways the best solution, have been ruled out because all the radiators are under the windows and I really hate short curtains.
Double glazing wouldn't be allowed (not that we'd replace our lovely windows anyway), so the only possible solution is secondary glazing.
But covering whole windows with a sheet of perspex would cut off major escape routes should there be a fire, and anyway I like to be able to open the sashes on hot days.

We've been able to cut down the sound a bit by jamming wedges (usually folded cereal-packet card) in to stop them rattling.

So, until a magic (and affordable) solution appears we're plodding on, adding more sweaters as the need arises, and balancing the sound of passing traffic and occasional late-night revellers against the delights of living in a lovely old house convenient for all the amenities of the city.

xx M

ps If this thread produces that magic solution I'll be thrilled to bits.

 

[lordmulberry]

We live on a busy road in the centre of town so traffic noise has always been a problem.

However the previous owners of our house had secondary glazing installed which means that we hardly hear any traffic except for the odd heavier vehicle. Also the secondary glazing installation follows the design of the main windows so, although not invisible, it is not intrusive. In my mind a reasonable solution. The glazing units were made circa 15 - -20 years ago by Everest. I'm not trying to recommend the company as it's a major plastic window manufacturer but it might be worthwhile seeing what their current secondary offerings are.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I lived in Goodge Street for a while, so sympathise with the noise thing- fab to be in a city though!

Curtains, in many ways the best solution, have been ruled out because all the radiators are under the windows and I really hate short curtains.
.

Wouldn't you have your curtains over the rads then? Is it that the curtains then steal the heat? I'm going to have my curtains sweeping over radiators, but can see it's not a perfect solution. I might move the radiators, or better still, chuck 'em out.

I would go for as many plants/shrubs as possible between me and the road, blinds, interlined heavy curtains, and preferably a thick carpet so as much noise as possible is soaked up. I would then investigate the secondary glazing thing if the noise was still maddening.

 

[Moo]

Goodge Street - how lovely! I had both my children in the (now demolished, I gather) Middlesex hospital and enjoyed watching the street wake up in the early hours.

re curtains and radiators - if they're thick enough to provide really good insulation, I've assumed that they'd do an equally good job keeping the radiator heat out of the room.
The best bet, of course, is shutters. We're using our downstairs front as an overspill bedroom for our son at the moment, and he reports absolutely no sound or light penetration at all. So if anyone has ideas as to how we could instal shutters in our upstairs rooms I'd be very grateful indeed.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I suppose it depends on your window reveals Moo. We need pictures!

My dad spent 4 weeks re-making and refitting the window shutters for the bedroom, bless him. They were fragmented bits of wood housing spiders in the shed prior to his restoration. The noiselessness darkness, and warmth they provide now is blissful. I know there are lots of people out there making shutters, does Biff include it amogst his window work I wonder?

re curtains and radiators - if they're thick enough to provide really good insulation, I've assumed that they'd do an equally good job keeping the radiator heat out of the room.
.

I'll let you know next winter!

xx

 

[Chorlton]

Thank you very much for your advice and comments so far.

I’m still waiting for my written quote but the more I think about it, the more I think go for the full restoration (without secondary glazing) and keep my original sashes. I have curtains behind my windows, which are thick but I suppose I could buy even thicker curtains if I wanted. (My radiator is not under the window).

When I get the quote I will post on here what they are planning on doing and if you think anything has been missed that could be included please let me know. Also I hope by me listing what they are proposing to do it will help other people who are getting their sash windows restored. This family company specialise in sash windows and I was very impressed with the guy that came to visit.

Yes, I do wear ear plugs at the moment to get to sleep but probably more out of habit these days now. My road, as I mentioned, is relatively quiet, only cars from people who live on the road but there’s the odd car with music blasting out . Also I live approximately 10 miles away from Manchester Airport so you do get a bit of air traffic noise.

Any more advice will definitely be appreciated.

Thank you so far

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, I do wear ear plugs at the moment to get to sleep

Mrs FF also uses ear plugs . . . apparently there's a very loud snoring sound in our bedroom, although I can't say I've ever noticed.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I need earplugs just for the cat, never mind the husband!

Chorlton, please do keep us informed about the windows; I'll be very interested to hear about the quotation. Last winter was so cold, and so costly to try to keep out the cold; this might have to be something we do to our windows too.

 

[Moo]

After the recent cold spell (the first time we've ever felt cold in our house) I suppose that what I really need is some system that can be put into operation for a few weeks a year and then removed and/or stored for the rest of the time.
Shutters really seem to be the only answer, but I can't see a way of installing them without making irreversible changes to the window reveals and architraves. So it looks as though we'll have to be content with draughtproofing and thermal underwear for the foreseeable future.

 

[JoceAndChris]

This winter was particularly hellish, the only one I can remember that actually reduced me to tears on a number of occasions. If it hadn't been for Mum and Dad rescuing me and taking me to their centrally heated home I think Beacon Cottage would have gone back on the market! Stuff stayed frozen in the kitchen without putting it in the fridge or freezer!

So every room is now cluttered with extra electric rads which I am happily going to stash in the sheds very soon.

If it makes you feel better shutters are not the sudden magic solution to snuggliness, they help, but double glazing helps more. I'd still rather die of cold than look at it though.

 

[Nigel]

In largely repeating what has gone before personal observations include:-

- Double glazing will almost certainly fail, so factor that in. My parents have just had their drawing room window mist up after 6 years and the previous one only lasted about 15
- If you go for new sashes the wood will almost certainly be significantly inferior to the quality Edwardian wood you are replacing - which has the potential to last for 100s of year if well maintained.
- How badly cracked is the glass? (corner or down the middle). We have loads of cracked panes (minor cracks) but just live with them as the crown glass is over 200 years old. Modern wiggly glass is OK ish but looks fake compared to the original
- Consider full refurb verus getting a carpenter to refurb. The full treatment by a glazing specialist can be very expensive (albeit end result is good) and if you are happy to strip and paint and have a chippy do wood repairs/replace sash cord etc you can do it for a lot less.

Hope this helps

 

[wombat]

Hi my house is circa 1902 and all sash window with a large bay,these were in bad repair and painted shut,and with nearly all original lights,i had many quotes for repair and replacement (inc upvc) i decided to repair(because i was skint) and bring them back to order,it took a couple of years on and off and i'm so glad i did.
I have just removed the secondary glazing for the summer,this keeps the house warmer and no condensation and helps cut noise,draughtproof kits etc can be got
and are effective,i have a good joiner who has made the odd frame etc exact as the old ones,i think secondary glazing would solve most your problems and you keep those lovely windows-good luck

 

[Chorlton]

The written quote has finally arrived in the post today.

I've been given quotes for 'standard renovation', 'extensive restoration' and 'replication'.

As I mentioned on one of my earlier posts I think I'll be going with the 'extensive restoration' and in time if I change my mind I'd have the option to go for double glazing but at the moment my thoughts are, I'm in my mid-thirties, working full time etc, I can afford the 'extensive restoration' and if it's not sufficient well then in time I can go (if I really need to, hopefully never) for double glazing but if I do that now then I may regret it forevever and will always wonder would the 'extensive restoration' have been enough and I would still have had my lovely windows.

So literally writing out what they have put for the 'extensive restoration' is as follows.

Restore 2 medium sash windows (@ £305 each) as detailed below:

- Carefully remove, sand and plane top and bottom sashes, re-putty all surrounding glass;
- Remove all paint from box frame
- Install concealed draught proof system
- Re-balance sash weights
- Service pulleys and replace cords to ensure smooth operation
- Prime exposed woodwork where necessary
- Fit new centre catch and uplifters
- Reseal the outside of the window with traditional mortar keeping the traditional look

They've classed my two sash windows as 'medium' so have been quoted £305 for each window with painting as an optional extra.

Somebody asked about the crack in my glass in the sash window. They seem to have forgotten about this in my quote so will be phoning them but the crack is in the bottom right hand corner of the bottom pane of glass of one of the windows. It is a diagonal crack going from about 6 inches high to then 6 inches across to the bottom. Sorry not easy trying to describe, maybe think of the corner like a right angled triangle with the corner of my window the horizontal and vertical sides, then the crack is the diagonal part, approximately 7 inches across. I've had to put sellotape on it to protect it as if it is very windy the corner bit of glass moves. So I do feel there is no question about this, I need a new pane of glass.

I'd be very grateful to hear if anybody knows of any additional restoration work which can be done to improve the sound proofing / draught proofing which hasn't been mentioned in my quote.

Thank you for your advice so far and any further advice please