hi there, appreciate this has been covered before in quite some detail about renovation. but I wonder if anyone can help. we have around 20 large sash and case windows in the house. some open and others are painted shut. other than being cold and letting in a lot of draft we get bad condensation which I am trying to reduce. to replace all the windows we got a qoute for 45k plus vat. however, to just upgrade the sashes to double glazed units and draft proof was around 60k. these are Edinburgh prices so I was wondering how they compare to other places in the UK. is it worth just replacing the entire unit rather than renovating them? anything else people would suggest to try and keep the house warm. all windows have working shutters
- Thread starter turnbull8
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fernicarry
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Is the 45k like-for-like replacement i.e. sliding timber sashes? Assuming you are happy with the appearance the other risk with replacement is that the internal joinery around the window reveal gets damaged in the process and you lose even more of the original fabric of your property. There was a thread on here recently about a house that had its windows replaced and the new units blocked the existing shutters from operating. Fitters didn't see that as their responsibility.
There are plenty of man-and-van independent traders who can repair and draftproof the existing cases. If your quote is from one of the big national franchises (Ventr*lla, Ever*st?) then the independents will almost certainly be more economical and may well do better work.
This building is 160 years old and all but two of the cases are original. Quite a lot of the top sashes are original and still have their original cylinder glass with its imperfections. I'd hate to lose that. Most of the cases have been repaired, probably multiple times. We are very exposed so external woodwork has a hard time of it. They had been renovated by one of those national franchises before my time and the results were not particularly impressive. Badly fitted plastic parting beads (of the wrong dimensions) bodged in place with mastic. I'm undoing that room by room.
Upgrading the existing sashes to double glazing is a bit tricky. The DG units are obviously a lot thicker than a SG pane so you need a deeper rebate in the sash to fit them into. To minimise this you need to go for thinner conservation/heritage style DG units and that will be where a lot of the cost lies. No getting away from that. There are other issues like the new units being much heavier than existing so you need correspondingly heavier counter weights or worse still you might have to switch to spiral balance (looks terrible and tends to fail jamming the window open or closed). You'll also have to factor in that DG units don't last for ever because the edge seals eventually fail and you get misting between the panes.
Whicihever way you go you'll need to factor in the cost of internal and external decoration so you're not done at 45/60k.
Personally I'm sticking with my existing SG units from both a cost and appearance pov. I've overhauled many of them so that the draft proofing is working well. The first few were done by an independent but its not rocket science so I do them myself now but I have the luxury of time to spend on them. As I go round the house I'm also attacking all the small gaps around the joinery that allows drafts in and adding insulation where possible. Lots of small interventions make a noticeable difference over time but its a long, hard road to follow. Condensation will always be a problem with SG though, thats just physics.
Anoither way to look at this is in terms of heat loss and cost savings. Its said that you lose 25% of your heat through SG windows. Absolute best case your new windows will only cut your bills by the same 25%, but in practice by less than that. The house may well be more comfortable to live in, but its unlikely the savings over the working life of the DG units will cover their cost. Even at today's prices you can still buy an awful lot of gas for 60 grand. Whether that will continue to be the case with the dash to net-nothing is a different question.
There are plenty of man-and-van independent traders who can repair and draftproof the existing cases. If your quote is from one of the big national franchises (Ventr*lla, Ever*st?) then the independents will almost certainly be more economical and may well do better work.
This building is 160 years old and all but two of the cases are original. Quite a lot of the top sashes are original and still have their original cylinder glass with its imperfections. I'd hate to lose that. Most of the cases have been repaired, probably multiple times. We are very exposed so external woodwork has a hard time of it. They had been renovated by one of those national franchises before my time and the results were not particularly impressive. Badly fitted plastic parting beads (of the wrong dimensions) bodged in place with mastic. I'm undoing that room by room.
Upgrading the existing sashes to double glazing is a bit tricky. The DG units are obviously a lot thicker than a SG pane so you need a deeper rebate in the sash to fit them into. To minimise this you need to go for thinner conservation/heritage style DG units and that will be where a lot of the cost lies. No getting away from that. There are other issues like the new units being much heavier than existing so you need correspondingly heavier counter weights or worse still you might have to switch to spiral balance (looks terrible and tends to fail jamming the window open or closed). You'll also have to factor in that DG units don't last for ever because the edge seals eventually fail and you get misting between the panes.
Whicihever way you go you'll need to factor in the cost of internal and external decoration so you're not done at 45/60k.
Personally I'm sticking with my existing SG units from both a cost and appearance pov. I've overhauled many of them so that the draft proofing is working well. The first few were done by an independent but its not rocket science so I do them myself now but I have the luxury of time to spend on them. As I go round the house I'm also attacking all the small gaps around the joinery that allows drafts in and adding insulation where possible. Lots of small interventions make a noticeable difference over time but its a long, hard road to follow. Condensation will always be a problem with SG though, thats just physics.
Anoither way to look at this is in terms of heat loss and cost savings. Its said that you lose 25% of your heat through SG windows. Absolute best case your new windows will only cut your bills by the same 25%, but in practice by less than that. The house may well be more comfortable to live in, but its unlikely the savings over the working life of the DG units will cover their cost. Even at today's prices you can still buy an awful lot of gas for 60 grand. Whether that will continue to be the case with the dash to net-nothing is a different question.
Stevers
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We have fourteen original fully functioning sash windows. The ones in rooms where comfort is more important have StormGuard 'V' self-adhesive draught excluder up each side and across the top. The windows still work nicely, are remarkably rattle free and there are no disfiguring permanent changes to the joinery. I've treated our two sets of French windows with it as well to truly remarkable effect. In addition two sash windows have the old Polycell aluminium secondary double glazing one is the shower room and the other a tiny workshop. That system is brilliant value for money, particularly in the shower room where it completely prevents condensation on the window. That room is vented via Passivents into internally routed ducting with mechanical humidstats controlling the draughts (under the door) so that we can leave the window shut. On the mornings where it's necessary (only in colder months) I spend a few minutes racing round the windows that need it with a Karcher window vac - sometimes three emptyings needed!
No connection etc. I won't be giving anything away if I told you that little lot was £200 at most. Double glazing having a particularly poor RoI.
No connection etc. I won't be giving anything away if I told you that little lot was £200 at most. Double glazing having a particularly poor RoI.
Gothichome
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I would suggest restoring the windows yourself. There is nothing more satisfying than looking through a restored sash with wavy glass that you restored with your own hands. Draft sealing is not hard, there are many options available now to do the job once the sashes are out. There are many here who can guide you and make suggestions that actually work. A good start would be to find the drafts on each window, most can be eliminated by just removing the staf beads and re install tighter to the sash. I bet you find if the sash rattles it will be drafty adjusting the staf beads will illuminate most major drafts.
Ron
Ron
fernicarry
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Spider webs are apparently a good indication of where the drafts are coming in. They like there to be a flow of air across the web bringing tasty treats with it.
Cubist
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Bugger... I like in a sieve!
Gothichome
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Drafty spiders you say, well that interesting fact should impress the girls at the pub.
Restore them yourself, bit by bit. You literally cannot buy wood as good as the ones they are made of - likely slow grown pine. Ours have lasted 125 years, the last 25 years under our guardianship, having restored them all ourselves by hand.
A draught-proofed single glazed window with wooden shutters and lined curtains will be more thermally efficient than the best double glazed window with no curtains (there is research from either SPAB or EH I believe that proves this).
PS Condensation will get worse with any work to reduce draughts. You need to address the source of the water vapour.
A draught-proofed single glazed window with wooden shutters and lined curtains will be more thermally efficient than the best double glazed window with no curtains (there is research from either SPAB or EH I believe that proves this).
PS Condensation will get worse with any work to reduce draughts. You need to address the source of the water vapour.
thanks so much for all your responses. I will tackle the drafts first and see how we get on. I actually got my figures wrong about replacement for the windows. And its is actually worse. replacing all the frames and sashes was £72k and the refurbishment with changing the sashes 68k. i work in the NHS and therefore unfortunately dont have the time to take on this kind of project. however, I will try sorting out the drafts initially and see what effect that has.
we tried out a couple of gecko panels on the glass which are acrylic sheets that create a gap. however, complete waste of time in the winter. condensation just as bad and do nothing to retain the heat.
we tried out a couple of gecko panels on the glass which are acrylic sheets that create a gap. however, complete waste of time in the winter. condensation just as bad and do nothing to retain the heat.
fernicarry
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Ouch, that's silly money. If you don't have the time then get an independent in to repair and sort the draft proofing. It should be of the order of hundreds per window opening, not thousands.