Sash windows dilemma

[Timw]

We are extending an old Norfolk cottage. The existing sash windows all need to be replaced and we naturally require that the windows in the new section should match. All the windows will have double glazed units fitted.

Our designer/draughtsman has specified the type of sash windows that operate with lift-assist springs. He argues they require minimal framework and thus allow a greater area of glass. The joiners who will build them however, have quietly indicated to us that they think traditional cord and weight windows are far superior.

Our dilemma is that although we would much prefer traditional cord and wight windows, the penalty would be that the weight-boxes would add almost two inches of extra woodwork on either side. The total woodwork from wall to glass would work out at around 5.5 inches either side The window openings are about 1m wide.

Our questions are:

1. Are traditional windows going to look 'clunky' with all that additional woodwork, and

2. Are springs really terrible?

 

[Lime]

I have experience of both types and properly fitted the sash cord window is much nicer.
The spring type restrict how much the window can open whilst the sash cord type frames can completely overlap.
The weight boxes of most sash windows that I have seen are usually recessessed into the inner skin of brickwork, the outer skin of brick covering the box to the window opening.

 

[Nemesis]

Agreed - if this is new build then allow for the recess.

I agree with the joiners!

 

[biffvernon]

It's an interesting question. Normal provisos of never damaging historic fabric apply, of course, but in this case we are talking new build. Conservation is one thing, reproduction is another.

I'm on the side of your designer/draftsman. Using spiral sash balances does allow much thinner framing and more light getting in. Yes, you can make the window opening bigger, which is effectively what suggested recessed brickwork is doing, and that hides the 'chunky' look.

Traditional cord hung sashes are lovely when they are working, but an enlightening, perhaps depressing, exercise is to walk down a street with old sash windows (if you are lucky enough to find such a thing) and count up how many of the windows obviously don't work, as evidenced by the encrustation of paint. The sad truth is that an awful lot of these windows have not been properly maintained. Cords break and in the real world folk just don't bother fixing them, paint them over, get fed up with not being able to open them and then swap them for uPVC.

So I don't see that there is anything terrible about springs. They do the job.

 

[Flyfisher]

If the existing sash windows use cords/weights, why can't the replacement ones not be built in the same way, with exactly the same dimensions and so not incurring "two inches of extra woodwork on either side?"

I can understand that the DG units might require a 'thicker' frame, but not sure why this should require and extra 2 inches of woodwork each side.

 

[Nemesis]

There needs to be some frame anyhow! Sash weights aren't very big, I can't see the problem myself. If you have joiners with experience of making them I'd go for it. Setting the frames into the building came about as a fire precaution. It doesn't have to be done but when it is it looks very neat.

With regards to springs v cords, we have no idea really how long lasting springs will be, I suspect many sash cords lasted a long long time before giving up. It could be that they were badly treated anyhow. When we have repaired our windows at the same time we have put in new cords as a precaution, but really there is no reason why they shouldn't last for decades if treated properly.

 

[Craig]

Sash weights are usually iron and can be quite large (we have biggish windows and the weights are ginormous!).

You can therefore make them out of lead to reduce their size?

I took from the original post that all the windows will be replaced - old and new. Are the original fitments recessed or not?

I think a nice exposed sash box is not a bad thing at all. Looks nice and gives you more opportunity to colour the front of the house.

My expereience of springs has not been great and they dont look great in-situ. I think you might be disappointed with them.

 

[Nemesis]

I reckon that whatever is there should be replaced like for like - sash frame design is part of a house history really - although I'm surprised that the originals require replacing totally, usually sashes only require some repair.

 

[Lime]

Traditional cord hung sashes are lovely when they are working, but an enlightening, perhaps depressing, exercise is to walk down a street with old sash windows (if you are lucky enough to find such a thing) and count up how many of the windows obviously don't work, as evidenced by the encrustation of paint. The sad truth is that an awful lot of these windows have not been properly maintained. Cords break and in the real world folk just don't bother fixing them, paint them over, get fed up with not being able to open them and then swap them for uPVC.

Oh, come on!
Is that really an argument to use springs?
That after a hundred years of neglect sash cord windows don't work but new springs do?
I doubt that springs fitted now will last anything like a sash cord, pulley and weight.
Springs are covered in a little plastic box that will almost certainly get painted up and/or broken over a few decades.
As for the argument that spring fitted windows are thinner there is some truth in that but not a lot.
Springs need substantial and solid pieces of wood to support the window side whereas a weight box is often made of quite thin wood but because it is in the shape of a box is light and strong.

The only other comment I think needs to be made is if the original windows have servicable pulleys, re-use them.
modern pulleys are inferior in strength and design in comparison.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Nemesis is that better for you? are you a "special constable" by any chance?

How about you spend your time posting real life experience information to users instead of nit picking on my post.

Maybe you would like me to post you photographs of my new oak framed building & house so enable you to sleep tonight.

Incedently on looking at your history i see you have posted company/website names in the past. Has anyone told you about "people in glass houses" ?

Go and bother someone else please!

You arrived here, posted a clear advertisement for a firm (recommendations on this forum are generally given as a response to a request rather than out of the blue), called Nemesis a "little Hitler" when she cast doubt on whether your post was anything but advertising spam, and when then thread was (rightly) removed, you turn up here to continue the abuse. All in a total of three posts from starting out.

 

[biffvernon]

OK Lime, I'm not making an arguement of it as I love old top hung windows as much as anyone. I'm just pointing out that in the right situation, spiral balances are a smart device that serve a useful purpose. I use them on windows where I want to make a very strong, long lasting but slim profiled frame. I don't know, but my guess is that they will last at least as long as a sash cord and are perhaps easier to replace though more expensive.

BTW, you can get high quality new pulleys if you shop around.

 

[Lime]

OK Lime, I'm not making an arguement of it as I love old top hung windows as much as anyone. I'm just pointing out that in the right situation, spiral balances are a smart device that serve a useful purpose. I use them on windows where I want to make a very strong, long lasting but slim profiled frame. I don't know, but my guess is that they will last at least as long as a sash cord and are perhaps easier to replace though more expensive.

BTW, you can get high quality new pulleys if you shop around.

I don't argue that the spring balance isn't a satisfactory working alternative although I much prefer a sash cord. If a solid braided nylon cord is used with the right knots on the weights they should last almost forever.
Whether the springs are still working well in 50 years time we will have to wait and see!
I'm pleased that good pulleys are still to be found as I have only seen very poor imitations recently. Most of them are plastic and have the tiniest spindle fitted imaginable. They appear to be built to last only a couple of years.

 

[Timw]

We just inspected someone else's spiral sash windows and I have to say that while they do look very neat, the action is really not very nice at all!

In our case we do not have the option of recessing the boxes into the walls so I suppose we just have to make the tough choice between easy sash operation or more light!

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Tim

 

[Nimster]

Our last house had some replacement sash windows that had the spring mechanism. Most of them had problems, and they had only been fitted about 5 years earlier. I would never fit sprung sashes - considering the rest of the windows were the original weighted sashes and still worked fine after 100 years, I don't know why they insist on trying new mechanisms - stick with what works!

 

[biffvernon]

Most of them are plastic and have the tiniest spindle fitted imaginable. They appear to be built to last only a couple of years.

I guess, as with most things, there are different qualities. The ones I use are made of stainless steel. I get them from BalanceUK, who say they have a 10 year warranty and are tested to 20000 cycles. That's 54 years worth if used once a day.

 

[Penners]

Are traditional windows going to look 'clunky' with all that additional woodwork?

Certainly not. Sash windows have traditionally been built with weight pockets, so the woodwork at the sides is how they traditionally look.

 

[biffvernon]

Depends how traditionally you want to go. The early sashes didn't have weights and all that new-fangled gubbins. You just used a wedge or a stick to prop them up. Often the top sash was fixed and just the bottom one slid up.

 

[NT]

To anyone considering using springs on sashes: dont. The action is lousy, windows frequently dont stay where theyre put, spring mecha lifetimes are only a couple of decades, and they can cause real injury when they fail.

The only plus is theyre quick to fit.


NT