Sash window pulleys for Venetian sash

[overlander matt]

We have one Venetian sash window in the Edwardian part of our house that we have started renovating. Elsewhere in the house, we have replaced the pulleys in the sash windows with rectangular framed units sold by Reddiseals. The Venetian sash is a bit different fitted with pulleys shown in the photo below. I cannot find a similar replacement from the standard suppliers of sash components.



I have been avoiding this window for a while but cannot do so for much longer... Any suggestions for what to do here would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Matt

 

[Feltwell]

Hi Matt

First question is, do they really need to be replaced? How bad are they?

They look like short, wide versions of a standard pulley, is that right? I've never seen any like that. I'm presuming you've checked the usual suppliers (Reddiseals, Mightons, Broughtons)

I suspect it will be a case of live with them as they are or refurbish them though.

 

[CliffordPope]

They just look like ordinary pulleys to me - what's so special about them? What ever goes wrong with a pulley, apart from getting clogged with paint?

 

[Feltwell]

They just look like ordinary pulleys to me - what's so special about them? What ever goes wrong with a pulley, apart from getting clogged with paint?

The original ones here are well & truly worn out - the axle turns in the side plates, where it's worn a nice oval hole, so the wheel has dropped and jams the sash cord against the face plate. They could be salvageable by making the holes back up again with weld and drilling them out, but to be honest they are so rough that it's not worth it, especially as I can get good replacements from Broughtons that are an almost exact match. So they can go wrong.

If that's the OP's problem or not of course I've no idea! They do look like standard pulleys but with an unusual face plate size.

 

[overlander matt]

Thanks Clifford and Feltwell. The photos don't really explain the problem other than the unusual facing - I should have photographed a different angle! On the uprights between the 'middle' sashes that open and the static 'side' sashes on the flanks, the rear of the pulley is also visible, taking the sash chord at 90 degrees over the top of the top 'side' sash and through another pulley at 90 degrees to the lead weight. The Reddiseals pulleys have a case covering the rear of the pulley which prevents the chord exiting at 90 degrees and just don't fit this window. I think the more expensive 'Kensington' pulleys don't encase the pulley but don't look like they would fit either. I will probably give them a call to ask their advice.

It's hard to know how the existing pulleys function. In removing the six sashes the window was probably opened for the first time in decades. Luckily there is not too much rotten timber in this window and it will mainly be a matter of paint stripping, filling the few pockets vacated by the rotten timber, draft proofing and repainting. Generally we have replaced the pulleys on the other windows but it looks like we may have to live with the existing if no obvious replacements can be found.

I will provide an update after further research!

Thanks.

Matt

 

[Feltwell]

Trying to get my head around this one.....

So the large middle sash is the only one that opens? The smaller side sashes are, and always were, fixed shut.

It sounds like what you're saying is there is no sash box for the weights between the large middle sash and the smaller outer sash - instead the cord for the large middle sash runs across horizontally over the top of the small side sash, via 2 pulleys, and into a sash box, where the weights hang, on the outside edge of the overall window? Have I got that right?

You've taught me something - I didn't know that a cluster of 3 windows, 2 outer narrow ones and a wider centre one, was called a Venetian window. I have one of those in my dining room - but each window is a conventional box sash, separated by a stone mullion externally.

 

[RBailey]

They could be salvageable by making the holes back up again with weld and drilling them out, but to be honest they are so rough that it's not worth it, especially as I can get good replacements from Broughtons that are an almost exact match. So they can go wrong.

Given the loads I'm not sure you'd need to go to the extent of welding. Could you fit either a loose sleeve, or even percussively :twisted: or epoxy fit a sleeve.

 

[overlander matt]

You have indeed got your head around it Feltwell! The photo below shows, in the foreground, the rear of the pulley that is usually hidden within the box for the weights. In our window it is on show...



I suspect I will avoid doing much more about it right now and work on some of the other windows. Hopefully someone here will have come across something similar!

Thanks as always,

Matt

 

[Feltwell]

Very unusual! That's the beauty of locally made items though, all the variations that exist. Done I presume to give a narrow separation between the windows.

 

[CliffordPope]

Didn't we have a recent thread by someone querying the purpose of a mysterious additional set of pulleys with no apparent purpose? I think I recalled having seen such a set up, and this OP confirms this unusual arrangement was indeed sometimes used, the purpose being to keep all the weights in the outer boxes and so slimming the inner mullions.
I can't fully understand the wear problem, but I've have thought some creative work with welding/brazing, sleeving, epoxy resin etc might succeed?

 

[dandrew]

Trying to get my head around this one.....

You've taught me something - I didn't know that a cluster of 3 windows, 2 outer narrow ones and a wider centre one, was called a Venetian window. I have one of those in my dining room - but each window is a conventional box sash, separated by a stone mullion externally.

As quoted from Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery (1907):

"Wide sash frames divided into three or more lights all in the same plane, are called Venetian frames, but if two of the lights are at an inclination to the other, the frame becomes a bay.
Venetian frames are of three varieties...

The first is the solid mullion frame. This is the commonest kind, and is intended for narrow openings, where the span is not too great to be supported by a lintel and the frame. In this class it is usual to make the central sashes much wider than the side ones, and to fix the latter.
The second class of Venetian frames is for wider openings supported and divided by thin brick or stone mullions. In these cases the whole six sashes can be hung, but they must be about equal size.
The third class of Venetian frame is for the widest openings, with thick stone or brick piers and correspondingly wide mullions in the frames, in which the sashes may vary in width according to taste, and may all be hung, or part hung and part fixed."

David

 

[overlander matt]

All very interesting! Looks like a Type 1 Venetian then...

As for the pulleys, I must admit I am avoiding this window right now, spent the day stripping down 3 sashes from elsewhere. I'll keep you posted on progress.

Matt

 

[Feltwell]

As quoted from Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery (1907):

Thank you for that - always good to learn more. "Class 3" for me then.

 

[Stephen Bullen]

Hi Matt,

I'm facing the same issue - my Venetian sash frame was so rotten it disintegrated when I touched it and the existing pulleys are just blocks of rust. Did you manage to find a usable replacement? The other issue with these types of pulleys is that the wheel sits snugly to the top of the frame, so there's no top fixing point. All I can think is to buy an open-backed pulley and grind off the top fixing lug...

Thanks

Stephen

 

[LadyArowana]

A lot of the Venetian windows in Bath have an arched one in the centre, very pretty on the outside, a pita for window treatment on the inside.

 

[overlander matt]

Hi Stephen,

I couldn't recall what we ended up doing - it's a while since we did that window! A quick check revealed that the originals could be repaired - we got the metalwork painted up and they don't stand out.

Our Plan B was to modify some standard pulleys from Reddiseals but it was a bit complicated - these weren't really the right geometry for our particular window.

Good luck with it!

Matt