Round holes in beam

[charlieboy]

It just shows how unobservant I have been!
I have just noticed that there are four round holes about two inches deep and one inch diameter on the underside of a ceiling beam. The holes are eleven inches apart and are slightly tapered.
You can see rectangular mortices where I presume vertical timbers once slotted in making a wall.
You can also see where the ceiling joists have been altered slightly.

So my question is - what were they for?

All I can think of is that there may have been vertical poles inserted so that wattle (as in wattle and daub) could be woven between them.
Was wattle and daub ever used for internal walls in place of lathe and plaster?
Other timbers in the house have been reused, so this beam might not have originally been in its present position.

Any ideas?

CB

 

[charlieboy]

Oops! I did not mean to post the same image twice.

Try this one.

 

[george2019]

I think you're right - holds the vertical wattle sticks.

I was in a pub last night which had undaubed wattle on show so yes, has been used on internal walls.

 

[tobydog]

Charlieboy - I have these kind of intriguing oddities around my house, as I'm sure thousands of others do. If these are the holes where the supports went for the wattles, I would have expected this piece of timber to have started life as a vertical stud. The reason for this is because the supports for wattles would normally go horizontally between the studs. One side of the stud would have a round hole, and the other side would have a groove sliced into it so that the support can be slotted down into place after the framework is finished. Vertical supports would have been too flexible/springy but it would be interesting to hear other peoples views in this.

From being a vertical stud, this piece of timber looks to have been repurposed as a ceiling timber. Now, whether those mortice joints ever received studs in your house could remain a mystery unless you know for definite that they were there but taken out a while back. Looking at the way in which your joists go into oversized (too big!) mortice joints, I would guess that this piece of timber may not even have started life in your house in the first place but came from another house.

As an alternative theory, I was talking to someone a few weeks back about timber frame houses and they understood that timbers with large round holes like yours could well have been ship timbers, and that the round holes were actually for taking bolts.

Just some thoughts to leave you more confused :roll: .

 

[Kearn]

The original panels in our 16C cottage that we've had to repair, certainly had vertical posts for horizontal elm twigs to weave. Holes in the upper surface, deeper than required, a groove in the lower, so the poles go up into the holes and then drop back into the groove. I'm not sure I've seen vertical wattle, but doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

We also had vertical grooves in the uprights of the frame though, to steady the ends of the elm wattle, so no need for poles this close to the frame post.

Yes, to internal wattle and daub, this is the construction of the wall, with plaster as the finish coat on top. We've got lots of examples of this.

Interestingly you have at least one peg still in the mortice joint, which *can* indicate the missing wood was removed in situ rather than pre construction. Then again, we have examples of this where there would never have been a joint as it stands in our house, so we put it down to laziness when the timber was repurposed, which some of ours clearly was.

Dimensions will help clarify, but it looks like your joists have been replaced at some stage - earlier builds certainly had much wider timber, over engineering in practice, which reduced over time.

I'd hazard a guess that you once had a wall here, and may be aware to find indications of where a door would have been on the remaining timber.

What is interesting and unanswered in house, are large bore holes into the inward faces of our cross beams upstairs, which isn't to be confused with your structure! But ideas to date are for supporting something - although candle holders would've likely had tapered ends to hammer in, unless removable. The other possibility given the depth and location of ours, is potentially to aid with raising the frame during construction.

Trying to read the scars of our frame is an ongoing mystery (mostly!!)

 

[tobydog]

Just re-read the original post. Missed the bit about the holes being 2" deep and not going all the way through. Doh!!

Will be interesting to hear how common it is to have these holes in the horizontal beams / sole plate. The lounge in our 1640's house is divided by open studs (wattle and daub removed a while back) and we only have the holes and grooves in the vertical studs. Our house frame would probably have been pretty basic at the time it was built so maybe houses of a higher standing had the vertical holders as well. Our frame was certainly made from many recycled parts!

 

[MikeG]

......... could well have been ship timbers........

In Shropshire!

I wish I had a pound for every time I hear this claim. In all my years looking around old houses, I have never seen a timber from a ship.

 

[tobydog]

Yes, looking at the location, Madeley is a little landlocked isn’t it. I used to believe the ship beam thing before someone mentioned it was unlikely. Beams with holes for bolts sounded a possibility.

Our studs are weird. What do you make of 12 holes in just 3 studs?

 

[TheSpid]

we have a lot of these too - I assumed for either wattle and daub or holding panelling in place. No water for ships near us either.

 

[Pennyviz]

......... could well have been ship timbers........

In Shropshire!

I wish I had a pound for every time I hear this claim. In all my years looking around old houses, I have never seen a timber from a ship.

Agreed, I asked someone from the Vernacular Architecture Group about this once and they thought it was a myth, except maybe in the odd coastal town.

Penny

 

[philpjuk100]

still use ships timbers for house building!

......... could well have been ship timbers........

In Shropshire!

I wish I had a pound for every time I hear this claim. In all my years looking around old houses, I have never seen a timber from a ship.

Agreed, I asked someone from the Vernacular Architecture Group about this once and they thought it was a myth, except maybe in the odd coastal town.

Penny

 

[tobydog]

These are our weird studs. Some of the holes have been partly filled with old lime mortar. One is so close to the edge that it comes through the side of the stud. Any ideas?

 

[Me!]

These are our weird studs. Some of the holes have been partly filled with old lime mortar. One is so close to the edge that it comes through the side of the stud. Any ideas?

Are you anywhere near Lavenham?
I've seen pictures of a Lavenham house with a selection of pegs in holes like that as a part of the old wool production process.

 

[Matt Green]

I wish I had a pound for every time I hear this claim. In all my years looking around old houses, I have never seen a timber from a ship.

It's always in Pitch Pine too.*


Matt


*It's never Pitch Pine.

 

[tobydog]

These are our weird studs. Some of the holes have been partly filled with old lime mortar. One is so close to the edge that it comes through the side of the stud. Any ideas?

Are you anywhere near Lavenham?
I've seen pictures of a Lavenham house with a selection of pegs in holes like that as a part of the old wool production process.

We're only twenty miles southeast of Lavenham so I would expect our village to have been involved with the regional wool trade. I'll have a Google! The hole that goes over the edge intrigues me. Thanks

 

[Kearn]

Are you anywhere near Lavenham?
I've seen pictures of a Lavenham house with a selection of pegs in holes like that as a part of the old wool production process.

Do you have any more info or links? Crude searches so far have come up blank! I'm intrigued...

 

[tobydog]

Yes, I’m also struggling to find anything. Just thinking about the timing, our house was built around 1640. Was the Lavenham wool trade in decline by then? Doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no connection.

Looking at the rest of the studs across the lounge there are 16 holes in total. Some are horizontally in line, while others are random in size and position. Most go all the way through but a couple don’t. There are actually two that break through the side of the stud but one of those doesn’t quite go all the way through.

This sounds like a Doug “What is it” type test.

 

[Me!]

I can't remember where I originally saw this, but it was years ago probably in a display somewhere local to Lavenham, not online.
However, it has come up again more recently, and I think that may have been in the BBC programme Pubs, Ponds and Power when that covered lavenham -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0...JRXdnF7nhK1Kvfy2YPhJuskvEWb1HdJSzW07mPB-WuIVg
but that isn't available online at the moment.

Sixteen holes sounds like it is probably too many for wool though. The arrangement I'm remembering was 3 or 4 pairs of holes across a couple of studs.