Roof repairs

[Pennyviz]

Having one section of roof repaired and a lot of the clay pan tiles are badly frost damaged. The roofer has recommended replacing all the tiles with new albeit 'aged look' tiles. It is obviously easier for him as they have nail holes and are uniform, plus they will have a longer life and fit better, He reckons in 6 months you won't be able to tell the difference. My feeling is that it will never look quite right and I'd be better off sticking with some reclaimed.


any thoughts or experience?


Penny

 

[Flyfisher]

We have clay pantiles and over the years have stripped/restored every section of roof in order to repair timbers and install breathable membranes. I've forgotten how many tiles we replaced but it was probaby around 20%. We also had to find around 1400 tiles for a new kitchen extension. In all cases we used reclaimed pantiles and it's impossible to tell the 'new' from the old. Fortunately, reclaimed pantiles are quite easy to find in East Anglia and we've found then for between 85p and 110p each.

My experience of old pantiles is that they are a real pain in the @rse lay, mainly because of their inherent variability - which is pretty much the last thing you'd want from a roof tile! - but the end result is lovely and I don't regret persevering with them, especially because of the way they blend together such that there are no patches.

Having said that, I've not seen or heard of 'aged look' pantiles so cannot comment on how they might blend in with existing old pantiles, but they would have to be quite a bit cheaper for me to consider taking a risk. Perhaps your builder could obtain 10-20 from the supplier on a sale-or-return basis so you could lay them out and compare them with your existing roof pantiles?

 

[MikeG]

...........My feeling is.......... I'd be better off sticking with some reclaimed.......

I've taken a fundamental and philosophical position against the use of reclaimed building materials in this way, and in particular, reclaimed roof tiles.

What started me down this road was seeing unused (but not abandoned) farm buildings being stripped of their rooves in the night by thieves. In most cases, this led to the total destruction of the building. If there is a market for second hand tiles, and a whole lot of second hand tiles lying around in the countryside unattended, then market demands will be met by the unscrupulous. I would rather encourage people to carry on manufacturing tiles in the old ways, rather than encouraging theft, so I always specify new hand-made tiles, and I seek to persuade all my clients to the same view.

There is also a strong argument to say that out-of-place old tiles or slates (or bricks or timbers or doors.......but let's focus on roof materials) are unauthentic, misleading, and actually less "right" than new alternatives.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I have no idea about roof tiles but I used reclaimed quarries for my kitchen floor and they were such a ballache I think it woudl have been easier and perhaps cheaper to use new. The trouble is getting new ones that look good, but I found a place after I did my floor obviously. Sarehole mill in Birmingham was re roofed with new mottled clay tiles. They looked terrible for a couple of years as the weathering was embarrassingly simple, some tiles black and others bright orange, but a few years alater an it looks very good. I think the important thing is to get ones made of clay and not coloured concrete. If you can get new ones that look good but to match in that would be the best I think. No point throwing away what is there already, that is aterrible waste, but replacing the broken ones with new if they fit in seems sensible.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've taken a fundamental and philosophical position against the use of reclaimed building materials in this way, and in particular, reclaimed roof tiles.

I understand the sentiment, though it does conflict somewhat with modern attitudes to recycling. I wonder about the percentage of reclaimed tiles (and other building materials) that have actually been sourced through criminal activity? I've seen unused farm buildings demolished to make way for new housing and the old roof tiles and bricks etc being carefully removed, sorted and palletised for recycling as reclaimed materials. It would undoubtedly have been quicker and easier for the developer to simply bulldoze the lot and ship it off to landfill or crush it down for hardcore - but would it have been preferable? Pros and cons.

 

[Pennyviz]

Because the new ones are a different size to the reclaimed ones I would have to replace them all on the one roof aspect. To be fair the new ones are clay and might be Ok but I've gone with my gut and stuck with getting reclaimed,


Thanks for your thoughts


Penny

 

[livias]

I would want to look at a roof which is already tiled in the tiles that your roofer proposes to see if you will be happy with them

New machine made 'aged' tiles will be much cheaper than handmade and may be ok for colour but you might not be happy with the uniformity of them .... though your roofer will be :lol:
New handmade tiles will look very bright to begin with but ours have mellowed beautifully within a couple of years

 

[Pennyviz]

And they have just shown me the wall plate is basically powder …..

 

[noj]

I've had a sample of the faux aged pantile (my guess is it'll be Sandtoft's Arcadia) and a new handmade one sitting in the garden for about the last six months. Straight out of the box the aged one looked pretty good, even up against the existing tiles, but already the screaming orange new tile is mellowing nicely. Cost wise, there's not much difference either. Still pondering...

If we get any actual daylight later I'll try and take a pic or two

(but all a bit late - just realised you've already decided on reclaims!)

 

[88v8]

Mike makes an interesting point. Round here, the problem is with stone roof tiles being stolen.

Four years ago I was going to use reclaimed pantiles on my new garage. For various reasons I went with plain tiles in the end, but having spent several days sorting through a huge heap of pantile reclaims that had allegedly come off one roof, I can tell you that I would never contemplate tiling a large area.
Why?

Because each maker used a different pattern and differing sizes. The different makes don't interlock well, if at all. Finding a decent quantity that will interlock properly was probably going to be impossible. I needed about 2,000 tiles, and even though I had more than 20,000 to pick through, I was struggling to find enough. That roof was a complete hodgepodge of different makes, thirteen iirc, and must have leaked like a sieve.

I should have known; we have an outshut tiled with a mix of old pans, I reckon the only thing that keeps the water out is the roof membrane.

So maybe use reclaims if you can find them for the conspicuous areas, and perhaps new ones elsewhere. But then would the new interlock with the old.... I bet not.

Ageing of new tiles can be accelerated by spraying the roof with sour milk. Moss and algae, our friends.

Ivor

 

[Pennyviz]

I've had a sample of the faux aged pantile (my guess is it'll be Sandtoft's Arcadia) and a new handmade one sitting in the garden for about the last six months. Straight out of the box the aged one looked pretty good, even up against the existing tiles, but already the screaming orange new tile is mellowing nicely. Cost wise, there's not much difference either. Still pondering...

If we get any actual daylight later I'll try and take a pic or two

(but all a bit late - just realised you've already decided on reclaims!)

The process has been delayed by the state of the timber, so may change my mind again ....

 

[Flyfisher]

Mike makes an interesting point. Round here, the problem is with stone roof tiles being stolen.

Four years ago I was going to use reclaimed pantiles on my new garage. For various reasons I went with plain tiles in the end, but having spent several days sorting through a huge heap of pantile reclaims that had allegedly come off one roof, I can tell you that I would never contemplate tiling a large area.
Why?

Because each maker used a different pattern and differing sizes. The different makes don't interlock well, if at all. Finding a decent quantity that will interlock properly was probably going to be impossible. I needed about 2,000 tiles, and even though I had more than 20,000 to pick through, I was struggling to find enough. That roof was a complete hodgepodge of different makes, thirteen iirc, and must have leaked like a sieve.

I should have known; we have an outshut tiled with a mix of old pans, I reckon the only thing that keeps the water out is the roof membrane.

So maybe use reclaims if you can find them for the conspicuous areas, and perhaps new ones elsewhere. But then would the new interlock with the old.... I bet not.

Ageing of new tiles can be accelerated by spraying the roof with sour milk. Moss and algae, our friends.

Ivor

I quite agree about the problem (impossibility?) of achieving a good interlock with old pantiles. It's an inherent problem with old hand-made tiles - there is simply too much variability, which is a really bad thing when it comes to roof tiles and is an example of the 'old ways' not necessarily being better than modern methods. Even before refurbishing our pantile roof and adding reclaimed tiles into the mix, the original tiles did not interlock particularly well. However, it did mean we had a draughty attic so any rain that was blown in quickly evaporated and is probably why, despite the leaks from broken/slipped tiles, the actual roof timbers were in very sound condition and, together with the over-engineering that was commonplace with oak-framed buildings, is probably why it is still standing after more than 450 years. Still, given the amount of rain that collects in the guttering, I'm pretty confident that 99% of the rainfall is kept out by the tiles and I sleep well enough at night knowing that the roof membrane deals with the other 1%.

Having said that, if I was building a brand new roof then I would also choose new tiles rather than reclaimed ones - the end result would be uniform and the interlocking would be better and easier to achieve, but where an existing roof was being repaired then I'd choose whatever would blend in best.

As for ageing new tiles by spraying with sour milk, I agree it may well encourage moss and algae but I'd hesitate to describe them as as 'our friends' when it comes to clay tiles as they can encourage the retention of water and therefore susceptibility to freeze/thaw damage. It was certainly the case that our north facing roof elevations had more moss on the tiles than other areas and that these tiles suffered proportionally more damage than others.

 

[tobydog]

When we had our new kitchen extension built, I asked the contractor to use the old pantile's from the dodgy Victorian extension (attached to our 17C house) he had just knocked down and source other reclaims to make up the numbers. He convinced me that it would be a very bad idea as they would never fit properly and will just start causing problems on what was a new roof. He worked with the architect / conservation officer / planners and they finally approved new Victorian style pantiles on the basis that they would age with time. Eight years on and they have weathered very nicely, however, it's still pretty clear they were new because they look so uniform. I don't have a problem with this because the new extension is now separate from the old house and only joined by a hallway link.

Funnily enough, I used the old pantiles to create new edging to some paths and borders and the contractor was right, they ended up being all sorts of shapes and sizes.

Useful link below:

http://williamblyth.co.uk/our-products/barco/

 

[noj]

Just for comparisson - here's a couple of pics of a brand new handmade pantile and an 'Arcadia' faux aged one

 

[88v8]

I would think in a couple of years either of those or indeed a mix if they interlock, would look just fine.

Ivor

 

[Feltwell]

Can't comment on pantiles, but I can tell you my regrets on using plain tiles.

When we bought Feltwell Towers, we knew the roof was shot, and I was in a hurry to get it done. The old tiles were delaminating - "shaling" - and it was a fair bet that when disturbed many of the remaining ones that looked OK would fall apart, which was true. They were plain clay tiles, original to the building, about 110 years old so they'd done well. There was nothing underneath them to catch any leaks.

The roofer - who I must stress in all other aspects (apart from getting on with the job!) was excellent - suggested a concrete replica plain tile that was artificially aged. The colour looked good - if rather new - when they went on, you could see that after a couple of years they would weather in. The problem is they were & are just too regular and perfect, and actually as they aged they look OK but not really quite like clay tiles.

When I built my garage, I used reclaims, and I managed to get reclaimed tile-and-a-halves for the ends - they are like rocking horse dung, I was lucky to find some. It looks good, instantly old, but after winters I've been up there a few times to replace failed tiles - for that reason, I'm glad I didn't use reclaims on my main house roof. The garage is a pain to get on the roof of, but is nothing compared to the house at 3 storeys high.

What I wished I'd done was spend a little more on the house and used new clay tiles, and to hell with any aging - that is best off being done naturally with time. Having said that, 11 years on, the roof doesn't stand out as being "odd" in any way and it's probably only me that would ever notice. I also expect that new clay tiles would be just as even and perfect as the tiles I have. What I needed was an equivalent to Victorian machine made tiles - which is what the originals were - so not as truly rustic as hand made tiles, but not as regular as modern machine made tiles.