Rise and fall brackets

[billybuntus]

Hello,

I'm just on sorting out the roof eaves line on my house. I'm rebuilding it in stone and have just fitted two lintels above the windows and faced them with brick.

I'm not wanting to refit facia boards as the line above the brick lintels is quite small (5 inch).

I'm looking to fit rise and fall gutter brackets with brett martin plastic old looking guttering. My question is what is the maximum gap between brackets? I'm not wanting to fix into the face of the soldier course but fear I may have to as it's around 2.1 Metres wide.

Will plastic guttering sag over this spacing? It's not el cheapo guttering so I hope it will be fairly solid in comparison to the bog standard stuff.

Thanks

 

[FamilyWiggs]

In my experience, anything much more than three feet and it starts to sag.

 

[Flyfisher]

Brett Martin technical information here: http://www.brettmartin.com/~/media/Files/Plumbing%20and%20Drainage/Rainwater/Rainwater%20Product%20Guide.pdf

In short, they recommend no more than 900mm spacing but they also make the point that modern roof insulation now means that snow is more likely to build up these days (assuming we get any) and when it slips can place additional strain on the guttering, in which case they recommend a maximum of 600mm spacing.

So a span of 2.1 metres sounds optimistic. I suppose you could try it and see what happens but I'd be prepared for it to fail.

We have rise and fall brackets on our guttering and although they are described as 'drive in' spikes, I would be very cautious about that depending on the state of the wall. Driving a substantial spike into the upper courses of any wall is a good way to break the mortar and lift the bricks apart. I'd recommend drilling holes as a minimum and also consider using a resin fixing.

 

[billybuntus]

I'll be drilling and fixing with resin.

What about using cast iron for the gutters? surely the weight would be supported at 2m intervals and it wouldn't sag?

Alternatively I could use one of these http://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/gutter-3/cast-iron-gutter-brackets-clips/half-round-gutter-brackets-clips/45-drive-bracket-half-round.html just above the center of each lintel and rise and fall for the rest? I don't fancy using them for the full stretch as I would imagine it's quite a feat to get them spot on.

 

[Feltwell]

Leaving aside for a moment the aesthetics of "cast iron look" plastic.........

My neighbours house has plastic guttering along one side, supported about every 6' (1.8m) and it's saggier than - well, let's not finish that simile! You need to support plastic guttering much more frequently, as folks above have said. My neighbours guttering pours water down his wall every time it rains heavily, the weight of the water makes it twist.

Cast iron guttering comes in 6' lengths - 1.8m - and whilst it can be OK just supported at the ends (guttering at the back of my house is like that) it's better with a mid support as well (job no. 2478 on the list for me, I bought the brackets about 5 years ago.... )

I wouldn't want any sort of guttering to be supported only every 2.1m, I'd worry about it being ripped down if it snows, we've had some quite spectacular slides of snow down the roof here when it starts to thaw, to the extent where I've always been surprised the guttering has escaped unscathed.

Can you support the guttering using rafter brackets? See page 6 on the link below.

http://www.longbottomfoundry.co.uk/Longbottom-40-Page-Catalogue.pdf

 

[billybuntus]

Well, unfortunately I don't have a bottomless pit of money and at over twice the price of a plastic equivalent it's looking unlikley that I'll be buying cast iron. You'll probably be horrified to hear I also have UPVC windows.

I have no rafters to attach too as they are set back and the front is entirely stone.

Nothings ever easy.

 

[Feltwell]

Well, unfortunately I don't have a bottomless pit of money

Neither do I, believe me!

Cast iron is very expensive if bought new, but you can pick it up off Ebay secondhand quite easily & cheaply - that's what I've done. Half round in particular is very long lasting. Beware of buying from multiple sources though, guttering varies in size even if in theory it's the same, I've some guttering with 4 1/2" cast on it that doesn't fit with some other 4 1/2" that I've got, but fits perfectly with some 5". You have of course got the pain of cleaning it up, but it's saved me a lot of money.

Can you not fit a small fascia board, then attach your guttering to that? I can't think of any other option.

 

[middi]

Sound advise from other posters.
Whilst ( as per rule of thumb ) gutter brackets every meter is the norm, anything above 1,5 m or 2 meters distance between them would only be disastrous when the guttering is subject to heavy rain or snow falls, therefore not suitable.

Middi

 

[FamilyWiggs]

In my experience, anything much more than three feet and it starts to sag.

In short, they recommend no more than 900mm spacing

Whilst ( as per rule of thumb ) gutter brackets every meter is the norm

Is this the most consistent PPUK response ever, without actually looking like it? 8)

 

[billybuntus]

Well, unfortunately I don't have a bottomless pit of money

Neither do I, believe me!

Cast iron is very expensive if bought new, but you can pick it up off Ebay secondhand quite easily & cheaply - that's what I've done. Half round in particular is very long lasting. Beware of buying from multiple sources though, guttering varies in size even if in theory it's the same, I've some guttering with 4 1/2" cast on it that doesn't fit with some other 4 1/2" that I've got, but fits perfectly with some 5". You have of course got the pain of cleaning it up, but it's saved me a lot of money.

Can you not fit a small fascia board, then attach your guttering to that? I can't think of any other option.

I'll give it some thought. My only downfall is the scaffolding is only up for another 3-4 weeks which somewhat limits my options. I have a ton of work still to do and not much time to do it (nights and weekends).

I have considered it and I was really wanting to not have anything up there to maintain (painting). I've found a fairly local supplier of R+F brackets. Looking at them if I lift the two which would be central above each brick lintel and wind the threads right down I may get away with it and cut the remaining thread off (then seal it with hammerite). Not sure how it would look though.

 

[88v8]

In the sun, plastic also creaks which can be very annoying, and creeps so that it works its seals out of their housings, and the seals degrade. So to the south I wouldn't use it at all. If I were being tight, I'd use ally.

To the north, plastic not so bad, especially if it's on at least a two-storey house so one doesn't really see it.
The best thing with plastic though, is that not only can one paint it - spirit off, sand with 100 grade, two coats oil gloss no primer - but it never needs painting again, at least not the two lengths I put up in 1981 and never repainted in 31 years.

As regards cast iron, if you paint it with this it will never need repainting.
http://www.rust.co.uk/epoxy-mastic-rust-proofing-chassis-paint/c28117/

Hammerite is pretty useless, in my experience.

Ivor

 

[Feltwell]

I'll give it some thought. My only downfall is the scaffolding is only up for another 3-4 weeks which somewhat limits my options. I have a ton of work still to do and not much time to do it (nights and weekends).

I can empathise with that!

The cast iron effect stuff I don't think looks very good, the guttering joints especially. If you want to go for plastic then personally I'd just go for ordinary plastic and be done with, save yourself some money.

Your other option, which avoids all the problems with plastic creaking and joints coming loose (both of which drove me mad in a previous house) is coated steel guttering, like Lindab rainline. I used some for the sides of a dormer where the only way to access it to repaint it is to get scaffolders in, i.e. I didn't want to be up there again for many years to come. It's good stuff - prefinished, fairly light, easy to fit, much stronger and less creak-prone than plastic.

http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/documents/Lindab_Rainline_Brochure.pdf

They also do a rectangular steel gutter - could you fix it directly to your wall with some spacers? Not ideal, but should be quite strong over a span.

http://www.drainageonline.co.uk/Guttering/Lindab-Rainline-Galvanised-Steel-Rainwater-System.htm

 

[Zebra]

Although cast iron would obviously be nicer, I've used ordinary plastic guttering, and don't really think it's an eyesore, although others might. I can't say I've ever noticed it creaking either, even on the south side.

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree with Zebra. On a two storey house no one will notice the difference between cast and plastic guttering. I've used plastic on the high guttering but cast iron on the kitchen extension where the roof extends down to the single storey and is far more noticeable. I am going to fit cast iron downpipes to the high guttering though, again because they are more noticeable at 'person' level.

I've never noticed plastic guttering creaking either.

 

[billybuntus]

Just got out of the bath after another hard slog.

Currently trying to even up the eaves line with stone. Possibly one of the most awkward tasks I've ever done. A right pain in the bum.

A shallow facia board is off the cards, there's only about 5 inches to play with and I don't want it over the brick lintels.

I've still debating on what to go with. I'll have a look around and see what I can come up with. First port of call ebay....

 

[billybuntus]

I agree with Zebra. On a two storey house no one will notice the difference between cast and plastic guttering. I've used plastic on the high guttering but cast iron on the kitchen extension where the roof extends down to the single storey and is far more noticeable. I am going to fit cast iron downpipes to the high guttering though, again because they are more noticeable at 'person' level.

I've never noticed plastic guttering creaking either.

That was my initial thought. I suppose I could fit bog standard black plastic and if it really irritated me replace with cast when I find some? Our house is around 25 feet tall at the front so seeing the guttering will be most difficult.

 

[Feltwell]

At my previous house the plastic guttering creaked something rotten. Most noticeable on a sunny, warm day - as soon as a cloud came across it would start contracting and creaking, and as soon as the cloud cleared it would start expanding and creaking. That's a lot of creaking in the UK weather!

It was only noticeable on the south side though - on the northern side there was no problem.

 

[a twig]

I agree with the pyjama'd horse - cost and expediency only allowed us plastic on our two storey south facing wall.

I kept as many of the original iron hoppers and downpipes as were still solid, and laid the new plastic gutter in the surviving original iron brackets where possible. This meant I only needed 3 or 4 new plastic brackets.

Most importantly it works well, no more water down the walls, and in my opinion it looks pretty smart, and there has been nary a creak to be heard!

 

[billybuntus]

Well, I've had a look at the 3 types cast, fake cast and I already know what the usual plastic variety look like.

Standard black comes in at around £70
Plastic cast effect comes in at £180 (look fairly decent although the difference in price is horrific considering there's not a huge difference other than surface finish and it has a little more style.

Cast looks the business and comes in at £360

Rise and fall brackets cam in at £52 for 10 which is seperate to the above prices. This caters for a 10m run of guttering 5m riser, spout, tree junction and all required bits and bobs.

I think I'll go with cast iron, as much as it's twice the price of the plastic look a like I feel it's money well spent considering it will see out the building.

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for some second hand stuff in the meantime though. Fingers crossed.

Thanks