Rewiring, lime plaster and original cornicing

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

I'm getting quotes in for a full re-wire. Almost every switch and socket in the house is in an impractical place at the moment. And nothing is chased in - the switches all go via wall mounted square plastic conduit, and sockets are coming through the skirting board.

The guys I've spoken to so far are used to just doing regular houses.
Today one showed me a chased wall he was in the middle of, and the wiring was in a tubular plastic conduit which would then get plastered over (with modern plaster).

Is that plastic tubing ok to cover with lime plaster?
When it's just a thin strip for wiring, would it matter if it was patched over with modern plaster in the middle of a lime plaster wall? (I don't wanna do a bodge job, but the cost and even just finding a lime plasterer in my area was a nightmare last time I looked into it)

Regarding my beautiful original cornicing - they reckon they can drill behind this without damaging it, to get the switch wires down from the ceiling.
Does that sound likely? (Is there a technique?)
Is there a better way to rewire so as not to disturb the cornicing? (I dunno how robust it is? I've been told it's usually solid plaster lengths screwed/nailed/glued to the joists?)

 

[88v8]

...sockets are coming through the skirting board.

In our previous house, rewired 1980 and extended 1990, all the sockets were on the skirting. So?

Is that plastic tubing ok to cover with lime plaster?

Yes, or any plaster. Not worth worrying about.

...the cornicing? (I dunno how robust it is? I've been told it's usually solid plaster lengths screwed/nailed/glued to the joists?)

Nowadays it would be solid lengths, in those days it may have been solid-run. It might be well attached and robust or not.
There was a long thread a few months ago about repairing solid-run cornice.

Whether your house is damaged or treated with respect, depends on the workmen. Get references, go and talk to their clients. And then make sure they send the same individuals who did that job. It's not firms, companies, that do good or bad work, it's the individuals they employ.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

It is incredibly difficult to patch in with lime as it has sand in it so the join needs to be gone over with something very fine to feather it in. Lime is also not very strong. I think patching over the chases with bonding plaster with a thin gypsum skim over the top would be a good solution.

 

[skier-hughes]

I would stick to using lime plaster, where gypsum had been used to patch on our house cracks appear all around the joint.

 

[wobs]

When we did partial re-wire last year, the lighting circuit was completely changed.

I did it with an electrician, so we were able to work out the best way of doing things.

When it came to cornicing, even he agreed that we didn't want to chase up behind them in case they were damaged. In our case though, we were able to drill through to the next room, as it didn't have cornicing. This meant that eg. The front room had no chasing going up to the ceiling, but the dining room had a wide chasing for about 5 cables going up.

Where I had to chase up behind a cornicing (in the hallway), I just had to be careful with the drill. I think the wall plaster was sufficiently thick that I could channel it out fairly easily.

 

[Owain]

Alternatives to drilling up behind the cornice for lightswitches are
- ceiling mounted pull switches
- wireless switches eg
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LMEST1.html
- if the ground floor wall does not continue above ceiling height (not supporting a first floor wall) then drill down the centre of the wall from above using extension rods on the drill if necessary, then use a metal detector to locate the end of the drill bit in the wall and cut in horizontally from the wall face to meet it
- switch drops to below the floor then go up to the ceiling level in a cupboard or similar

 

[Feltwell]

Ohh dear. This is going to be one of those threads where you get a real variation in advice!

I was in a similar position, a Victorian house with a safe but unattractive rewire job. Not quite a bad as yours perhaps, lighting has been chased in, but all sockets are on pattresses hard up against the top of the skirting boards, which looks pretty awful, and I've the odd place where they've left exposed wiring running from below the floor over outside of the skirting. Phone extension wiring was surface mounted all over the house, looked awful.

I've also fitted a full hard-wired alarm system throughout the house, added Cat5 data cabling, and lots of phone extensions - as well as needing to add/move lots of sockets whenever a room is redone - so all in all a fair bit of chasing out on lime plaster, and needing to get behind deep skirting boards / cornice.

For patching, I use powder filler - Gyproc Easifill. Comes in big bag, it's cheap, easy to mix, and 7 years on I've had no problems at all with chases cracking, which I can say with some certainty as many of them have yet to be decorated over yet .... It's been fine with the lime plaster, goes on easily, I put one coat on flush to fill the chase which does shrink slightly, then add a final skim which I sand down afterwards. Very easy stuff to sand by hand and using an Abranet kit with a Henry vacuum cleaner means next to no dust. It's meant for drywall systems, filling the gaps between tapered edge plasterboard sheets, but it works perfectly as a general powder filler. I wouldn't worry about lime for odd bits of filling, a lack of breathability on a wall chase will make next to no difference, none at all on an internal wall.

For going behind skirtings and cornices, very long drills are your friend. Chase up the wall to the cornice, then very carefully use a 1m long drill bit with a cordless drill, no hammer action, and I've always got behind them OK and only ever once damaged a cornice (which was my stupidity really, the cornice was easily fixed, not so sure about the stupidity!) The length of the drill bit and the fact it's got some flex in it means you can drill almost vertically if you're careful, despite the drill needing to be at a slight angle. Working out cable routes in advance and making as much use as possible of going between rooms, under floors and through built-in cupboards is also handy. That and a set of cable rods - makes fishing cables through holes and gaps so much easier, a set can be had for a tenner.

Hope this helps, aimed more at DIY than using a tradesman as that's what I've done.

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

Ahh... of course... simple once you know - drill down through the non-structural wall it is. Thanks.

Luckily the wall that divides the hall from the lounge does not continue up into the bedroom above, so will go in from there. Both these rooms have cornicing, and luckily it's not too deep, about 8-10cm from ceiling so hopefully do-able.

Regarding your hard wired alarm system Feltwell, did you consider having a wireless one? I am contemplating putting in an alarm system while all the floorboards etc are up, but was told wireless would be a lot more simple? (I don't really want an alarm, it's to satisfy the contents insurance. :-/ )

 

[Feltwell]

Actually, I wouldn't drill down, as you can't see what you're drilling into. I'd run a chase up the wall so that it ends at your cornicing, then if you use a long drill, 600mm or 1m is what I usually use and choose one with a fairly small diameter, so it has enough flex in it that it can lie against the back of the chase and drill vertically up. Drill two holes side by side if necessary. I've found here that the wall plaster doesn't go far up behind the cornice or behind the skirting, so I break through quite quickly.

I've never had good experiences with wireless gizmos, I fitted security lights here with a wireless sensor system and now regret it as after 3 years they failed and I need to take them out and fit a wired system. The wireless system I have is now unobtainable so the dodgy sensor can't be replaced - if I'd put a wired system in then I could have just swopped to any other proprietary PIR sensor.

My Dad fitted a wireless alarm to his place, it only lasted 18 months before packing up - a friend had a similar experience. I'm biased in that the in-laws ran a security company for many years, hence I got given the alarm system for here for free. My father-in-law wouldn't touch wireless systems, said they were too unreliable. A wired system will be better in the long term - if I have any component fail, I can replace it with a component from a different manufacturer if need be, the wired items such as PIR sensors, internal sounders, bell boxes and control panels are generic and different manufacturer's items will work with each other.

Wireless ones won't be and you run the risk of needing to change the whole system if you can't get spares - plus they are really only intended for DIY install and are hence likely to be built down to a price. With wired you get a variety of quality and price points. The trick with the wiring is to "cluster" the sensors where you can, so for example I've got the lounge and dining room sensors on the opposite sides of the same corner, so I only had to drop the wires in one location then go through the wall. As alarm cables are so thin and flexible you can drill carefully into the bottom corner of your cornice if dropping wiring from the ceiling above - the sensor itself hides the wire when it emerges. Ohh, and only screw the sensor to the wall on one side of the corner, do it on both and you'll distort the casing. They're very light and only need two small yellow rawlplugs putting in to hold them up. Put a bit of excess cable behind the cornice, then in the future when you decorate you just unscrew the sensor from the wall, leaving it's wires connected, pop it in a clear plastic bag with a tie to hold it shut against the cable and you can let it hang on the cable whilst you decorate - no need to isolate it either, it will be fine, and if you get paint on anything it will only be the bit of cable that goes back behind the cornice when you put it back on the wall again. Watch the tamper switch spring when you take the cover off, they have a habit of springing off on some sensors and are very small - open the casing slowly. All top tips from father-in-law after 20 odd years of installing alarms for a living. Ohh, and Christmas decorations were his biggest cause of false alarm call outs! Usually because people put them over the sensors... :roll:

I now await someone posting to say they've had a wireless alarm system for 20 trouble free years of course! :lol:

If you've got the floorboards up anyway, I'd definitely go wired. When I did this here I put telephone extensions in all over the place as well, but I wished now that I'd put Cat5 data cabling in too, as I had to come back later and do that .

"Flyfisher" on here is one of our resident techies and told me that you can do away with the phone wiring and use Cat 5 for both phone and data. Others are happy with wireless data only. I found the signal too patchy here.

 

[Spoilt Victorian Child]

I too am suspcious of wireless things for the very reasons you give. I hate cordless phones with a passion because there always seems to be interference, and the battery life is often next to nil because of the way people charge them, so you get cut off mid call. Give me one on a wire any day.

Do you have any experience of wireless thermostats for central heating? At my last place I insisted on a hard wired one and most people looked at me gone out. I need to make the same decision for this place and again, instalers are recommending wireless as they can be moved about if you do happen to inadvertantly choose a bad location for it. I'm not keen on relying on batteries though.... any thoughts?

I've got a pretty good wireless signal here, the router's in the front room and I can pick up the network in the garden, so don't think I'll be going CAT5 - unless there's some other reason for CAT5 other than plugging in a PC?

 

[Feltwell]

No, I've only had wired thermostats.

Wireless data seems OK for most people. Wired will give quicker connection speeds, I had to put wired in to connect the family PC up, so I put it in for the kid's rooms for future use as well. I could have gone with powerline adaptors, I have actually put one in to boost our wireless signal in one part of the house, but I didn't fancy relying on them completely. Probably just me being a luddite, but a bit of cable between two places just seems inherently less likely to ever cause trouble!

 

[Keithj]

Wireless is fine IF (big IF) the supplier is long-established and likely to be in business for years to come, or if it's stuff to a known standard (802.11 for example) - but even then some 802.11 devices are more equal than others!

Wireless alarms - not keen. Clever burglars can defeat them by various means. I'd choose wired every time. Ultrasonic detectors can't tell the difference between a burglar six feet away and a moth two inches away (as we found). I like magnetic reed switches - they are very reliable, and don't go in for false alarms.

Also, with wireless new legislation gets to you. We had wireless-controlled garage doors at the previous house. They were brilliant - M could drive in from shopping, open the garage door, drive in, and close the door without getting wet. Then the transmitter she kept in the car stopped working. A simple fault ... I thought. No, said the manufacturer, that model works on a frequency that is no longer legal for us to sell. You can use it until it breaks down, then you have to replace the whole wireless system (for lots of money). I dismantled the dead unit and managed to cobble a repair that kept it going until after we sold the house.

Cordless phones work very well IF you get good quality ones. There's plenty of cheap stuff about that will put you right off the idea. If the name starts with Bin, then that's where it belongs. Ours will go for well over an hour on a call: I've never had them run out of battery. They recharge quickly when put back on the cradle. (If you leave them lying around on the sofa, then the batteries will run out.) They work from the front of the front garden, all through the house and down to the back of the back garden. We have five handsets dotted about the house. There's a hard-wired handset in the bedroom for power cuts and burglaries.

Chasing wires through plaster - it's pretty much all said above. I spent a week channeling out space for conduit in a Welsh kitchen with granite and flint in the walls. I realised why the previous owners had just glued conduit to the surface, but I persevered and the result was very pleasing. The electrician who we had to have to connect the tails to the fusebox (Electrical Part Prescott rules) admired our perseverance. He also lent me his SDS drill to make the fixing holes for the kitchen units and the hole through to the meter/fusebox.

I use a spring-steel "tape" to pull wires through conduits. Push it through from one end, guide it where you want it to go, and then pull the cables. Cheap and effective!

 

[Zebra]

I often have to chase up behind Victorian cornices for work as an electrician, and agree with what's been said, it's perfectly do-able without damage to the cornice, with a long enough drill bit, and a bit of care. It might take a couple of attempts if you hit a joist the first time and need to move to the left or right a couple of centimetres, but I've almost never damaged one. Same for a dado rail or picture rail, you can get behind them fine.
Unless that is, you can't lift the floorboards in the room above and have to chase across the ceiling. Heaven forbid you're in this situation, but then, if you have to chase both behind the cornice and above it, and the two chases have to meet up, you might as well just cut a section out and have a decent decorator make a decent repair.

 

[Flyfisher]

"Flyfisher" on here is one of our resident techies and told me that you can do away with the phone wiring and use Cat 5 for both phone and data.

Yes but, just to clarify, not at the same time (well, not without some unorthodox wiring which is non-standard and could lead to future comparability issues), so if you are installing Cat5 cabling it's best to install it in pairs to a dual outlet.

Also, although wired connections are generally faster than wireless ones, this is of little advantage for any internet traffic as the internet connection will be the limiting factor. But if you copy lots of stuff from PC to PC over your network then it might be a consideration.

As ever, it's all to do with trade offs. Fortunately, between wireless, wired and powerline devices there's a lot of choice these days. While wired system are usually cheaper, more reliable and faster than wireless, the upheaval of installation is not to be underestimated.