Restore Fireplace - Vent Needed?

[ajayre]

Hi, still working on restoring a Victorian fireplace that was bricked up. It needs new firebricks, hood and repair to the flaunching. The original hearth is under the carpet.

I've contacted a local fireplace company and they told me that in order to comply with building regulations it needs a raised hearth and a permanently open vent in the floor.

I can understand these requirements for new fireplace installations, but do they apply to a like-for-like restoration?

Putting a permanently open vent in the floor is very unappealing as where I have exposed floorboards before there is a really cold draught that comes through.

Thanks, Andy

PS I tried a search before posting but got:

SQL ERROR [ mysql4 ]

Duplicate entry 'a0771fd9cd4d54ed1cfffebf3366be03' for key 1 [1062]

 

[plasticpigeon]

Look for someone else that will do what you want, or do it yourself!

 

[ajayre]

Look for someone else that will do what you want, or do it yourself!

So the building regulations for new open fireplaces does not apply to restorations?

Andy

 

[paulb33]

I can understand folks getting nervous if its a new installation (e.g. a woodburner). But, sounds like overkill if its just "tidying" an existing fireplace... :wink:

 

[plasticpigeon]

Look for someone else that will do what you want, or do it yourself!

So the building regulations for new open fireplaces does not apply to restorations?

Andy

I never said that! I just think that using common sense and getting what you want is more important.

 

[paulb33]

Look for someone else that will do what you want, or do it yourself!

So the building regulations for new open fireplaces does not apply to restorations?

Andy

I never said that! I just think that using common sense and getting what you want is more important.

Further to PP: common sense to me means that if you have a fireplace already, you're under no obligation to upgrade it to present building regs. There are millions of houses around the country that will need to raise their hearths, otherwise.

Common sense also means NOT calling the local Building Regs folks and asking "Should I be installing a vent and raising the hearth". You;re not installing a new fire, so your old fire doesn't need to comply with current building regs.

If you're planning to let the property and advertising it as having a working fire (providing coal and firelighters for the new tenant), then you may need to be more cautious etc.

CAVEAT: I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, MUCH OF THE TIME.

 

[davidbrac]

I think that if you are repairing you are OK but if you are installing a new fireplace then the regs come into play. however if you ask building control then it would be a yes you need to comply.

I would talk to another company.

When we looked at installing a wood burner in the lounge it took three attempts to find someone that talked common sense is very knowledgeable, he then supplied the parts and we did the installation with the help of our roofers.

 

[a twig]

In our old place - we opened up an old fireplace. I got the chap from our local place to quote for a new grate as the old one had gone walkies. While we was there it turned out it would need to be a custom one and I asked about replacing the whole fireplace.

He was very blunt, conversation went like this:

Chap: "So, this is merely a grate for an existing fireplace, and all you want me to do is supply a grate for it, yes?"

Me: "Err..."

Chap: "Because if you wanted a new fireplace installed, and I came and did it, it would have to be a new raised hearth, ventilation etc."

Me: "Ok.."

Chap: "But because all you are asking me to do is supply a replacement part for an existing one, we won't need any of that, will we..."

Me: "Ah-ha! Yes, got you, spot on, quite right!"

So he just gave me the details of a local blacksmith for the custom grate. Aforementioned smith made me up a beautiful grate, dropped it in, swept the chimney, job was a good 'un!

 

[Penners]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, MUCH OF THE TIME.

I think that should become the PPUK tagline, Paul! :wink:

However, for whatever my amateur opinion is worth...

I suspect your problem, ajayre, is that you fall betwixt and between a simple repair and a new fireplace installation. There's a distinct possibility that the hearth you've found under the carpet is what's called a "constructional hearth" - that is, one that was installed simply as a base for a raised hearth to be built on. So the repair v. installation argument could go either way.

There are other considerations, too:-

Firstly, will you be able to find a reputable fireplace installer (HETAS registered, if you want a worthwhile certificate) who will be prepared to install a new one without the required ventilation.

Secondly, even if you could do so, would it be safe to have an open fire without said vent? Carbon monoxide and all that...

Thirdly, if/when you come to sell the house, you'll find that the prospective purchaser's solicitor is going to require proper certificates for every damn thing under the sun - electrical installations, plumbing, central heating boiler, fireplace(s)... you name it. And if you're unable to produce these certificates it's probably going to cause, at best, a distinct hiccup in the process of selling.

Is a strategically located vent, perhaps with a make-or-break grille, really going to be so unsightly?

 

[paulb33]

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, MUCH OF THE TIME.

I think that should become the PPUK tagline, Paul! :wink:

However, for whatever my amateur opinion is worth...

I suspect your problem, ajayre, is that you fall betwixt and between a simple repair and a new fireplace installation. There's a distinct possibility that the hearth you've found under the carpet is what's called a "constructional hearth" - that is, one that was installed simply as a base for a raised hearth to be built on. So the repair v. installation argument could go either way.

There are other considerations, too:-

Firstly, will you be able to find a reputable fireplace installer (HETAS registered, if you want a worthwhile certificate) who will be prepared to install a new one without the required ventilation.

Secondly, even if you could do so, would it be safe to have an open fire without said vent? Carbon monoxide and all that...

Thirdly, if/when you come to sell the house, you'll find that the prospective purchaser's solicitor is going to require proper certificates for every damn thing under the sun - electrical installations, plumbing, central heating boiler, fireplace(s)... you name it. And if you're unable to produce these certificates it's probably going to cause, at best, a distinct hiccup in the process of selling.

Is a strategically located vent, perhaps with a make-or-break grille, really going to be so unsightly?

This is ALSO a common sense approach.

 

[ajayre]

Is a strategically located vent, perhaps with a make-or-break grille, really going to be so unsightly?

Thanks for the input. I never said anything about the vent being unsightly though.

A big part of my problem is that I can't DIY it because I don't know what I am doing. I can't find information on what it is supposed to look like completed. I believe I posted pictures on here before. So I have to find someone who knows what they are doing (and gives me confidence) but at the same time applies common sense...

The hearth looks like painted tiles, so I guess that is the complete hearth, not just constructional.

Andy

 

[paulb33]

The hearth looks like painted tiles, so I guess that is the complete hearth, not just constructional.

Andy

I dug out your pictures. I think you've got a few more issues, seeing these. First and foremost, its a bedroom. Most reasonable builders or installers will be nervous upgrading a fire in a bedroom without building reg compliance.

The second issue is the hassle of a bedroom fire. Like most bedroom fires, its tiny. Originally designed to chuck a burning log on just before retiring, to take the chill out of the air. I suspect you're going to a lot of trouble to get a functioning fire, when its going to give little practical heat without a constant supply of fuel. And, I expect you've got a radiator that does the job admirably.

If it was me, I'd keep it non-functioning. Plaster the back of the fire, restore the painted surround and expose the hidden tiles. Chuck a log on the grate, keep it unlit and you've just added £10k to the house valuation.

MY NORMAL CAVEAT APPLIES: I MAKE MOST OF THIS STUFF UP AS I GO ALONG.

 

[davidbrac]

there is a lot of information on this site, he is very knowledgeable and concentrates on woodburners but the information on installation may help you.

http://www.backwoodsman-stoves.co.uk/index.html

note he only supplies on the west coast of Scotland.

Best advice l have ever had came from the backwoodsman "install a ceiling fan in your high ceiling rooms" This works great at taking the heat that rises and pushes it back down - but l digress

 

[88v8]

In our previous house, 1920, which we bought from the one and only owner who also built it, neither of the bedroom fires had ever been lit.
I changed the fire surround in one bedroom, it had acquired an ugly 1950s tile effort which I replaced with a cast iron Viccie, left the other as it was.
They were just decorative.
Unless your bedroom is very large and you plan to spend a lot of time in there, I'd forget about it ever being functional.
Just make it look old. A new fireback for instance can be painted with black emulsion which you streak with sooty fingers while it's still wet.

We had a gas coal in our bathroom with an Edwardian surround, the bathroom we had built in our new extension In 1991. The gas board had kittens about it, even though there was a (closeable) vent but I lit it twice a week in the winter for 21 years when I had a nice long bath, and good heavens! I'm still alive.
The new owner's solicitor requested paperwork for various things, but nary a word about the gas coal in the bathroom.
I do miss that bathroom.

Ivor

 

[ajayre]

Unless your bedroom is very large and you plan to spend a lot of time in there, I'd forget about it ever being functional.

Thanks for all the input. We will consider restoring it but perhaps not to be used. Even though it's a bedroom it's also my office, so I am in there 9 hours a day, five days a week. It's the second-most used room after the living room.

Andy

 

[Flyfisher]

There are other considerations, too:-

Firstly, will you be able to find a reputable fireplace installer (HETAS registered, if you want a worthwhile certificate) who will be prepared to install a new one without the required ventilation.

Secondly, even if you could do so, would it be safe to have an open fire without said vent? Carbon monoxide and all that...

Thirdly, if/when you come to sell the house, you'll find that the prospective purchaser's solicitor is going to require proper certificates for every damn thing under the sun - electrical installations, plumbing, central heating boiler, fireplace(s)... you name it. And if you're unable to produce these certificates it's probably going to cause, at best, a distinct hiccup in the process of selling.

If that's a prioritised list then I'd suggest swapping the first two considerations. Bending rules is one thing but safety should be paramount. We have a small fireplace in one bedroom and it's not entirely clear how it could be safely used without constant supervision. The hearth is almost non-existent and hot ashes from a decent room-warming fire would spill onto the floorboards or carpet. Regulations or not, I'd be very wary of using it and I doubt we ever will.



As for the third point, I agree in principle but I'm less sure about the practice. When we sold our previous (1950s) house, the buyer's solicitor certainly asked us about things such as electrical inspection/safety certificates, gas boiler servicing history, plumbing inspection/certificates, tree preservation orders and other things I can't remember now. With the exception of the TPO (which applied to the entire area, not just our house) I could only answer 'No' to all the questions and could provide no paperwork for any of the works we had carried out in the previous 20 years, except for a reference to the planning consent for a 15 year old extension. Our lack of paperwork didn't seem to bother the buyer in the least.

We may just have been lucky I suppose.

 

[Penners]

There are other considerations, too:-

Firstly, will you be able to find a reputable fireplace installer (HETAS registered, if you want a worthwhile certificate) who will be prepared to install a new one without the required ventilation.

Secondly, even if you could do so, would it be safe to have an open fire without said vent? Carbon monoxide and all that...

Thirdly, if/when you come to sell the house, you'll find that the prospective purchaser's solicitor is going to require proper certificates for every damn thing under the sun - electrical installations, plumbing, central heating boiler, fireplace(s)... you name it. And if you're unable to produce these certificates it's probably going to cause, at best, a distinct hiccup in the process of selling.

If that's a prioritised list then I'd suggest swapping the first two considerations........

......Our lack of paperwork didn't seem to bother the buyer in the least.

We may just have been lucky I suppose.

No prioritisation intended on the list, FF, but you've made some very relevant points.

As regards the paperwork for a prospective purchaser's solicitor, our last house sale was a nightmare. Our first prospects' solicitor wanted chapter, verse, full stops and inside leg measurements on every bl++dy thing, most of which I was unable to provide because they related to things that our predecessors had been responsible for. We ended up losing those buyers. Fortunately, the next lot to come along (several months later) had a more reasonable solicitor, and they were more relaxed about period properties anyway.

So I think it can go either way. One just needs to be aware of the risks of a lack of certification.

 

[malcolm]

Weren't the small bedroom fireplaces originally intended as a place to put hot coals in from the main fire when you went to bed? They don't normally make practical fire places (we tried once and gave up as they are way too much maintenance).

We've got a big fire in the living room that doesn't have a vent. I doubt my fire needs one, but building regs will want us to put one in along with all the fire doors and the insulation in the unheated rooms. Building regs are a very useful reference as they are sensible and well researched and are available free on the internet, but the implementation by the powers that be seems to be just a box ticking exercise with no regard to being sensible.

On the whole I would avoid getting them involved for an existing fireplace. Worth making sure the fireplace draws and fitting a carbon monoxide alarm in the same room, and looking at where the wood and coal will go when it falls out of the fire. Common sense like they used to be allowed to use in the old days before they replaced it with box ticking.

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting point about the use of such small fireplaces. I'd not heard that before, but it makes sense as they don't seem particularly well suited for prolonged use.

 

[Flyfisher]

As regards the paperwork for a prospective purchaser's solicitor, our last house sale was a nightmare. Our first prospects' solicitor wanted chapter, verse, full stops and inside leg measurements on every bl++dy thing, most of which I was unable to provide because they related to things that our predecessors had been responsible for. We ended up losing those buyers. Fortunately, the next lot to come along (several months later) had a more reasonable solicitor, and they were more relaxed about period properties anyway.

So I think it can go either way. One just needs to be aware of the risks of a lack of certification.

Wow - sounds as if we were lucky then! Having said that, we had our share of people messing us around as well. One couple who came to view stepped into the hall, looked at the staircase and announced that they didn't like stairs! I resisted the urge to suggest they might be better off viewing bungalows in that case :roll: Another one, a former Irish international footballer, made an offer and then wasted two months of our time failing to get his finances in place to actually proceed. :evil:

But when the right person finally comes along everything seems to just fall into place. I recognise your point about the buyer's solicitor asking us lots of questions but I think we were fortunate in that our buyer was the no-nonsense sort who would listen politely to a solicitor but then decide for himself and say 'fine, now get on with the purchase'.

So yes, I'd agree that lack of paperwork could cause unnecessary complications and delays when selling a property, but a committed buyer probably won't be too fazed.