Replacing wooden guttering

[claraclattermole]

Hi all. I have been lurking on here for years so I feel like I know you all but I haven't posted before.

I have a 1820s Georgian listed house with a walled garden. I have just managed to get up to roof level this week and the gutters are not in a great state and are rotten through at the corners where they join. I am assuming the best thing to do is replace the wooden guttering? Currently they are painted but should they be lined with something like lead/ bitumen paint or some sort of waterproof barrier?

I can't do working at height so, does anyone have any recommendations for roofers/ gutter repair people in the South Yorkshire area?

Picture is of the extremely crap repair someone has attempted at the corner with a random piece of lead. Needless to say the water is just running over this when it rains.

 

[alexander]

as its a listed property it will depend on what listings allow you to do to the guttering, they may insist that its repaired rather than replaced , your first port of call maybe your local listings officer at the council to see what they say regarding the gutter

 

[Cubist]

@alexander makes a fair point but provided you intend only to make good and repair - rather than replace - then you shouldn't face much in the way of challenge from your local CO. Give him/her a call to explain what you've found so far and what you propose to do about it, they will at least try to help and may be able to recommend local tradespeople in your area as well.

Sadly much will depend on the physical condition of the wooden frame of the gutter as if this is failing then replacement may be the only strategy. Any decent joiner should be able to re-produce the wooden channel sections either using a pattern or comprehensive dimensions, and lead lining of the component parts is not a particularly difficult or challenging task either. Frankly the most challenging aspect of this project would be getting the old guttering down and two men at least would be needed to do that.

 

[Stevers]

That looks to be carved from the solid and a bit unusual. It might be possible to patch the corners, and then line the top with fibreglass for a more lasting repair. In the past it might well have recieved frequent attention with linseed oil and paint after a thorough clean. More recently it looks like it's been bitumened, and that might be another option if done often enough.

 

[claraclattermole]

Thanks. I has hoping to attempt a "like for like" replacement and avoid having to bother with the listings people.

 

[claraclattermole]

The wood itself is surprisingly solid considering that it has been ignored for a couple of decades at least.

 

[Stevers]

The wood itself is surprisingly solid considering that it has been ignored for a couple of decades at least.

It struck me that if original it must be heartwood timber and of exceptional quality!

 

[claraclattermole]

The house was pimped to the max by some neuvo riche Edwardians in 1905 and had all the fanciest gas fixtures and fitings put in and fancy stained glass and new fangled bay windows so it is possible they put top quality guttering in too? They definitely fiddled with the roof as it has a weird extra bit sat on the original roof to make the ceiling height higher in the loft room so that it could be used as a billard room.

 

[malcolm]

Surely a wood gutter would have had lead on top to channel the water. Has the lead been removed?

 

[Cubist]

Intrigued I've been looking around and found these guys in Leeds. May be worth your calling them to see if they know installers/repairers in your parts.

https://clivewalkertimber.co.uk/category/wooden-gutter

Or these guys in Lancashire.

View the Treated Timber Gutters

Have a look at the treated timber gutters from George Hill Timber. All of the products on our website can be delivered for free if your order is over £100.

georgehill-timber.co.uk

 

[Stevers]

Interesting links. For unlined gutters I'm not convinced that whitewood/spruce could ever be regarded as 'rot resistant' whatever it was treated with. And 'Shingle Oil' surely a miracle substance if ever there was one! Looks like the maintenance regime might have been oil above and paint below, but which oil and how could you ever effectively seal the mitres at the corners?

Surely a wood gutter would have had lead on top to channel the water. Has the lead been removed?

The problem with lead is that because of thermal expansion and contraction it can't lay it in long lengths, Code 3 is pretty much limited to 3', Code 4 to 4' etc. In valley gutters there needs to be a step at each join, and Code 8 was/is available for up to an 8' run between steps.

 

[Cubist]

I suspect these Spruce/Whitewood timbers rely more on the mass of the timber final profile itself to provide much of their longevity and that the pressure treatment used during preparation before manufacture would help a little too. Nevertheless, I agree that their lifespan would likely be at best a few decades only and Spruce, in my very limited experience of it, resists deep penetration of almost any oil. The only material I might trust to treat the trough of the gutter, and any mitre joints for that matter, would be a heavy coat of bitumen.

The problem with lead is that because of thermal expansion and contraction it can't lay it in long lengths,

Wouldn't they have 'lapped' the lengths of lead to avoid expansion problems later?

 

[Flyfisher]

I had some lead valleys and a dormer flat roof that had failed because of poor lead installation. I was quite surprised at the extent of the splits that had occurred, presumably through thermal expansion/contraction over the years.

I can't imagine how lead could be 'lapped' in such a way as to remain in watertight in a gutter with only a slight 'fall'. We all know how even the slightest build up of detritus in a gutter can cause it to hold water, which is not usually a problem except in extreme circumstances because the entire length is watertight and the water can remain where it is until the next rainfall flushes things through. But if standing water got back to the lapped joint then it would leak under the lead into the wooden understructure. Such things don't happen in roof valleys because of the larger gradient and its only really wind-blown rain that can penetrate upwards and under a lapped joint and the solution is simply to allow sufficient overlap.

Having said that, I'm no lead expert so perhaps there is some sort of flat joint that will remain impervious to standing water while still allowing for expansion/contraction.

It's an interesting conundrum through and, perhaps an example of how modern materials and methods can be so superior to the 'old ways'. I know plastic has many problems but it is undeniably a good solution to some problems (runs for cover!).


PS: Seems I should have done some searching before posting but at least I can now imagine how to make such joints in a lead gutter, though I'm not sure if it's a genuinely 'period' method. It also requires the lead sections to be welded so perhaps not a particularly easy DIY job and one for the specialists. It's a great pity that 'DJH' Doug is still not with us, he would have been able to answer all this in a flash. So sad when we lose genuine time-served experts in their field.

EXPANSION JOINTS - Associated Lead Mills Ltd (ALM)

Premium Lead Expansion joints have been designed to overcome the problems arising when laying lead lined gutters with restricted falls and to provide a lower cost alternative to the restructuring of existing gutter detail.

www.associatedlead.co.uk

 

[claraclattermole]

I think the current ones may have been bitumened at some point. They have definitely been up there for at least 20 years as we have been here about 8 and the house was empty for 12 years prior to that. Sounds like lead is definitely not an option. I rang someone this week who is apparently the local wood gutters expert and he was taking about some sort of special new flexible paint which expands and contracts with the wood?
Thanks @Cubist for the link. I will try ringing them and see what they both say.