Replacing the Ceiling

[Anonymous]

Right, so having had half the ceiling collapse, having cleared it all up, removed the old laths, re-routed all the electrical cables, we're In position to start replacing the ceiling.
The cottage was built around 1750 so lots of lime mortar, plaster etc (not on the fallen down ceiling unfortunately), so the question is what to replace the ceiling with?

Is there any technical reason to replace with lath and lime plaster or is it ok to use plasterboard? (i'd hoped to leave the beams exposed), then should I just cover the plasterboard with lime plaster or normal plaster or jointing compound (the latter seems to be a popular choice).

Any how interested in your thoughts....

 

[paulc]

Is there any technical reason to replace with lath and lime plaster or is it ok to use plasterboard? (i'd hoped to leave the beams exposed), then should I just cover the plasterboard with lime plaster or normal plaster or jointing compound (the latter seems to be a popular choice).

The purists will tell you to replaster with lath & lime or use lime over wood-wool boards. It would be more sympathetic towards the building.

That said, I've just finished replacing the ceiling in my kitchen which was a mix of lath & lime and plasterboard. The boards were screwed up leaving a 3-5mm gap at each joint. Jointing compound was then injected in to the joints with the aid of an empty mastic tube & gun. Joints were then taped and given a quick skim of compound before applying a coat of FeBond Blue Grit across the whole ceiling. Finally, a skim coat of lime plaster was applied - I added a generous helping of polyester fibres (~2mm in length) in when mixing up the plaster. Finished off the ceiling with a thin veneer of polished plaster with a touch of ultramarine blue added.

Finishing the whole ceiling with jointing compound, whilst seemingly popular, is a low skill finish - The stuff is usually slapped on and then power sanded back. If the ready-mix stuff is used, moisture will soften the binder (good if wet sanding, not good if stripping off paper).

 

[Anonymous]

Hi thanks for the thoughts... jointing compound is a low skill solution I agree, but then I'm a low skilled DIY'er so seems good with me...

I guess my question is really about whether it technically matters or not. I wouldn't dream of using anything other the Lime plaster on my walls since I know they need to breath etc, but does it make a difference on a ceiling?

Fortunately the insurance company have agreed liability, so now I just need to find a plasterer who's not sooo busy they can't give me a quote.... I'm down to the 8.x scores on check a trade (entering the dark side!!)

Paul.

 

[Flyfisher]

Is there any technical reason to replace with lath and lime plaster or is it ok to use plasterboard? (i'd hoped to leave the beams exposed), then should I just cover the plasterboard with lime plaster or normal plaster or jointing compound (the latter seems to be a popular choice).

Any how interested in your thoughts....

I doubt there are any technical reasons not to use plasterboard [***] and if you choose that route then I suppose you might as well go the whole hog and use modern plaster as well. In fact, given two newly plastered and decorated ceilings, both competently done by experienced tradesmen, I'd challenge anyone to tell the difference. So, if the end results of either approach are going to look identical, then you have to ask yourself what you're trying to achieve. It'll almost certainly be easier (and cheaper) to find a good tradesman who will work with plasterboard and 'pink'.


[***] Assuming there are no listing constraints

 

[Flyfisher]

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[MikeG]

Right, so having had half the ceiling collapse, having cleared it all up, removed the old laths, re-routed all the electrical cables, we're In position to start replacing the ceiling.
The cottage was built around 1750 so lots of lime mortar, plaster etc (not on the fallen down ceiling unfortunately), so the question is what to replace the ceiling with?

Is there any technical reason to replace with lath and lime plaster or is it ok to use plasterboard? (i'd hoped to leave the beams exposed), then should I just cover the plasterboard with lime plaster or normal plaster or jointing compound (the latter seems to be a popular choice).

Any how interested in your thoughts....

One has top assume that the building isn't listed, or you wouldn't be asking the question.

Is there enough of the ceiling left such that you could over-board it? That is a half-way house compromise that is worth considering, in that you leave what is left of the original in tact, and available for anyone to find in year to come, yet a cheap and easy solution suitable for a competent DIYer. I would suggest Universal Onecoat plaster if you want a modern plaster to look like lime.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah property is listed, but let's not get into an argument about the UK's archaic BS listed property law that would rather have a building fall down than be repaired and lived in.

My plan is to repoint the bottom half of my walls with cement based mortar, apply bitumen sheeting and then lime render over the top of it inside, raise the floor levels outside by approximately 8" above the internal floors with concrete, then cover all the damp affected walls with 2x2 and fibre board to hide it and raise the floor with damp proof membrane and cover that with 2" of concrete (making it still 6" lower than outside).... oh wait, sorry that was the LISTED building I bought :evil:

I did however laugh only slightly loud enough for the CO to hear when she asked me if I might consider removing my tiled roof and exposing the original thatched roof... I tell you this CO doesn't live in the real world and from what I can tell she's not alone.

Anyhow given that a. there's no ceiling left to overboard and b. the ceiling that fell down had 3" of some sort of hard white plaster board glued to the original lime plaster (I know !) I'm at a loss to know what is included in the listing in any case. The building was listed in 1982 so I figure that unless the ceiling "repair" was done prior to that (which it almost certainly wasn't), it's imho a removable object and c. given that it decided to fall down on it's own and I've no reason to believe that the other side wouldn't too, which could injure someone (it nearly did me), I think I'll run the risk of stripping it out .

So my repair simply needs to be the cheapest but best option, I'd like to leave some of the cross beams exposed, the centre beam is about 18" square (a monster), so I'm thinking of something between them perhaps an inch or so exposed, then with some nice unobtrusive lighting and polished up beams it should look really nice. I just wanted to be sure from a looking after the building point of view that using plaster boards with some sort of modern skim wouldn't cause any damage.

If I could afford to lath lime it then I'd have it done but I simply don't have the money and I don't want to do another bodge. Covering over an existing bodge would be more of a crime than anything I'm planning on doing imho.

thanks for the suggestions and the input though ( sorry for the rant ! )

Paul.

 

[Flyfisher]

It sounds as if the 'stuck on' plasterboard may have exacerbated the problem with the ceiling falling down. Lath and plaster often fails when the fixing nails rust away and added weight would certainly not help. If the plasterboard had been securely fixed through the original ceiling then it would have been more likely to prevent the collapse. But what's done is done and the original fabric is lost forever.

As for what is included in the listing, that's simple - everything. If the house had been fitted with plastic windows at the time of listing then those 'features' are listed just as much as any others and strictly speaking LBC would be required to replace them with something different (that being an alteration rather than a repair).

I have to say that your point that our listing system would rather have period properties 'fall down than be repaired (or altered) and lived in' has not been my experience. Indeed that very point was made to me by an English Heritage officer (our listing is G2*, which adds another layer over the CO) when discussing a significant addition to house a new kitchen - he explicitly accepted that if period properties are not made suitable for modern living then no one would buy them and they would fall into disrepair and be lost forever.

I'm not suggesting our listing system is perfect, but it is fraught with difficulty because of the wide range of views (even among the professionals) and the individual nature of the properties involved.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah pretty much agree with all that in principle, however what the rules are and the reality is in my experience so far tend to be on completely different planes.
Most people I've talked to for example will only apply for LBC if they feel there's a chance someone will report them. We recently applied to have some roof lights put in, in the more modern kitchen extension of our cottage. It went back and forth a bit but in the end it was agreed we could have 3 put in (1 was a replacement + 2 additions), we had applied to have 4.
We complied and only had 3 but everyone in the village we spoke to about it said "oh well I'd have just put in the 4, who's going to know..."

It's a shame that CO's seem to have generated this adversarial climate with home owners. My wife who now works for an estate agents planning and LBC department (handy) tells me that on so many occasions the CO has agreed something in pre-application meetings only to the deny all knowledge of it and turned it down afterwards when the money has been spent.

We were told by our CO that she didn't normally meet with people before they bought a listed property i.e. it wasn't standard practice, which tbh I was completely shocked about.

If we're supposedly custodians of the houses we own (a term I disagree with completely) then working with people to achieve a balance of preserving the old but allowing the new should be the key. I'm sure your CO and others do try and do this but from anecdotal evidence, it seems to be quite a toxic relationship for most people. If you add to that, the pain involved in getting LBC which contrary to the advice we were given, is not free, since you have to have drawings done and you have to have the right words in the right statements etc etc and all of that costs money, then I'm sorry but most sane people for all but major projects won't even consider applying for LBC and will simply just do what's needed to be done.

In our case the cottage was owned by a large landed estate who basically own all the houses in the village. Was a prosecution ever brought? Were any enforcement orders applied to have the damage their contractors were allowed to do to my and other people's houses reversed, err no. Seems like either the CO's (over the years) were too busy to be able to do anything (our's had never seen our house before we invited her to attend it), don't care, or are scared by the financial might of a large land owner.... I suspect somewhere in between all of them may be the case.... So will I worry about getting consent to reinstate a ceiling that's fallen down ? Err no I'll call it a repair and then all bets are off.

I've no intention of damaging any historic fabric, I want to enhance it, repair it and then show it off, but I can't live in a museum and taking down a dangerous ceiling that could have injured me or my family, which isn't historic (or at least no one can prove it was) is actually a no brainer for me....

See what you made me do.... I've written a tome again

All the best.

Paul.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've only had experience of one listed property, one CO and three LBC successful applications. I had meetings with our CO before taking on the project and have lost count of the number of visits he has made to help and advise - all at my request. So, from my perspective, the system seems to work pretty well, though I freely admit my one example may not be typical and I've also heard various 'horror stories'.

As for LBC not being free, I take your point about drawings and documentation, but if you're prepared to spend a bit of time then applications certainly can be successfully made at no cost. Of my three applications I only needed architect drawings for one of them (because I can't design large extensions!) and even then I did all the written stuff, submission and management myself. I used location and site maps from Google and made extensive use of photos instead of drawings - something that's very easy to do with digital cameras. And with online electronic submission there's no longer any need to sub,it multiple paper copies, as I had to do with my first application. In fact, it really is so simple that I could probably make a small fortune as an 'LBC Consultant' - money for old rope

 

[MatthewC]

I do sympathise with you about your various rants - I had much the same sort of problem with the CO & co.

However, re your original question: I did use plasterboard on my downstairs ceilings, but lime on lath upstairs. This was because I wanted upstairs to breathe and the downstairs ones were thought to be OK - when they started to fall in places, I no longer had the option to plaster them properly and then not to tread above them for 6 or was it 12 weeks? I think it was a right decision as you don't need the ceiling to breathe internally between the two floors, do you? As I recall I did have the plasterboard skimmed with lime plaster finish coat, using a DG27 base, but that was simply because I had already bought the plaster!

I have missed if you have said which floor yours are on.

Matthew

 

[Anonymous]

Right, well back to this baby... Insurance has accepted liability which is great... and I've sent off the ridiculous quote to them from the local plaster and legg-it company....
Had a chap around to look at the pointing as I want repairs done rather than the whole house (I'm not made of money)...any hoo... apart from telling me interesting stuff about the house, how bricks were fired locally and he reckoned about 1780 - 1820 as a date.....I mentioned the ceiling and he said he would use wood wool boards and lime plaster... anyone used such stuff and know if it's something I should even consider attempting? Or get a contractor in ?