Replacing combination fire place *PIC*

[thiambal]

There was me thinking all I had to do was decorating now! Picture the scene, me stripping some particularly stuibborn wall paper from the dining room, thinking - finish this, bit of lining paper, bit of paint - done!

Then Mrs C says we should see what is behind the bricked up fireplace. So I foolish agree to knock a few bricks out - stick my head up with a torch and have a look. I knew I should refuse but the boyish urge to hit something with a hammer took over. The situation is as follows.....

1) All the old fire back removed, external hearth still there but internal surface has some cement / concrete on it - rumour has it there was a back boiler installed in the space at some point in the past.

2) Looks like original arch has been removed - there is a more recent metal lintel about 2 foot from the floor. Cannot be sure about arch but I cannot see it from inside and cannot get nasty cement plastering off outside.

So Mrs C now wants something doing and are the options presented are as follows.....

1) Open up space replace a lintel higher up - possibly rebuilding an arch, maybe just a lump of something. Then replaster and use it as a feature space for logs, candle, those dried sticks they sell you in IKEA (I know - groan )

2) As 1) but stripping back whole breast to brick (I know - groan ) which I do not think will be easy as the bottom half has been patched up at different times with cement and gypsum.

3) Locate a combintion fireplace in a similar style to that in the lounge and have that installed - would still need a new lintel higher up - but could be a bit of metal etc as it would not be seen which would be cheaper than rebuilding the arch . Also new fire back etc built. All assuming that the chimney functions.

Any which way - not much change out of £1000 I reckon.

Any comments, criticisms or advice gratefully received.

 

[middi]

It appears to me Thiambal, that whatever you decide do to, which can all be done, depends on how much you value your relationship with Mrs C. :wink:

 

[Lime]

In order for you to make an accurate decision you need to know if the original arch is still in place.
It probably is still there as most builders don't do any more work than they need to.
The average height of older fireplace arches is about 4+ ft which is much higher than the more recent one you can see.

 

[finglonger]

Hi there,

I'm new to this forum although I have spent a while lurking and reading all the useful advice here.

I'm also in the process of reinstating a fireplace in my living room - it also had a gas back boiler in there and there was a poured on concrete slab in there which broke up quite easily (once I had revealed the full builders opening) with a few blows from a sledgehammer. The arch on my chimney breast is some 40 inches from the floor level, so keep looking - it's almost certainly still there somewhere!

I've read in various places that the cast-iron insert should be bedded on bonding plaster to create an airtight fit - would lime plaster be the traditional way of doing this or do I have to resort to bonding plaster which contains gypsum?

My property is a stone-built victorian house. The chimney is built from stone and the brick builders arch seems to be supported on a couple of shaped pieces of wood built into the chimney breast. This seems a bit dangerous to me, surely the wood risks catching light? Although obviously it has been fine in the past. Does anyone know if this is a normal victorian practice? I will need to add a lintel further down the builders opening to allow me to fit a fireplace insert and I guess the brickwork on-top of the lintel will mostly protect the wood from catching light assuming I'm fairly liberal with the mortar. Has anyone else seen this sort of construction? Is it safe to use with an open fire?

Cheers,

Paul

 

[thiambal]

In order for you to make an accurate decision you need to know if the original arch is still in place.
It probably is still there as most builders don't do any more work than they need to.
The average height of older fireplace arches is about 4+ ft which is much higher than the more recent one you can see.

Alas the bottom half of the fire place has been patched up with cement on which I have made some tentative hammerings but will not budge - I am concered about damaging the structure if I attach it too hard.

I am guessing you would be able to see the reverse of the arch on the inside of the chimney - I have stuck by head and a light well into the hole and can only see horizontal layers of brick - the layers around where the arch would be look rough.

Am I wrong in assuming that I would see the arch from inside? Any tips on how to get the cement off without the whole structure coming down?

I am gusssing that if we were to put in a replacement combination place then a modern lintel would surfice if the arch is gone - as it would not be visable?

 

[finglonger]

Hi Thiambal

Mine was rendered in cement and covered in gypsum plaster too but some work with a chisel and a club-hammer managed to detach most of it with very little damage to the bricks (which will be re-plastered anyway) aside from requiring a little repointing. It's worth being careful though as some *rse had managed to damage a couple of the bricks in the centre of the arch (they look like broken teeth) and "repaired" it by stuffing rubble into the hole. It won't be a problem once I get a lintel underneath it as it still supports the chimney breast well and I shall repair the gaps as best I can with bricks cut to size.

I have to say I couldn't see the archway from the inside - there was too much soot and darkness, even with a torch. I started from the bottom and when I got one piece of cement off the rest could mostly be levered off with a crowbar or by working the chisel parallel with the face of the bricks.

Good luck with it - removing the cement and removing the rubble infill left in the opening was teh most satisfying job I have done yet.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Nemesis]

Post a pic???

 

[finglonger]

No digital camera I'm afraid. I'm a film dinosaur when it comes to photography - and a monochrome one at that.

 

[thiambal]

Will have a go at pics tonight - not a lot to see though other than a small hole the wall.

Will try poking a camera up and taking some pics tonight to see if I can locate the elusive arch that way!

I did have quite a go at the cement last night - it is very firmly adhered!

 

[Nemesis]

None of our fireplaces have arches - stone lintels.

What's the house built from, how old is it? How wide is the chimney breast, how deep the wall? These things make a difference!

 

[thiambal]

Nemesis,

House built in 1903 of brick, I am sure it would have been a brick arch lintel - judging by a nearby house of a similar vinatge who have revealed their brickwork.

The chimney breast is about 50 inches wide - you can see the marks on the hearth from the original comination fire place which was 37 inches wide at the base. It is approx 14-16 inches deep (that is a guess but about that - I will measure later)

I have joined an image hosting site so pics to follow tomorrow.

The marks on the hearth indicate that the original fire place was exactly the same width as that in the lounge - which is quite a plain late victorian/edwardian style with tiled inserts.

Looking at web sites of original and reproduction fire places I think we are going to have to go for something a bit more fancy to get something the right size. It is quite a modest terrace house - do you think it would have had a tiled fire place in the back room or something plainer? I have tried looking for one in a neighbours house but no luck!

 

[Nemesis]

It may have had a range for cooking somewhere... a wider chimney breast would indicate that. And a range needs a higher lintel.

Re the wood in the other post - it's not unusual, and if it's been there that long it's probably OK! But covering with mortar is a good plan.

Image hosting:

try

http://host.photogalaxy.net/

It's not as flexible as some sites but it's instant!

 

[middi]

Thiambal, reinstating chimey fronts is not a difficult job, just time consuming.

Usually builders can't be bothered to replace bricks like for like and repoint with lime mortar as in the original construction, they just slap cement render all over the place to make it even for skim plaster or other finishes, because it is easy, faster, looks new and easy to decorate.

This is especially true if the chimney is not intended to perform the function for which it was originally designed.

If you wish to reinstate it somewhere towards its original condition then all you have to do is to "unpick" all the modern stuff, without going mad with hammer drills etc....carefully use hammer, chisel, bolsters and old screwdrivers.

When you reach the original "soot" line, stop and and reinstate all the damaged bricks etc with lime mortar.

The chimney will not fall down otherwise it would have done so before they could have mended it, just make sure that the side pillars of the chimney breast are mostly in situe.

You can safely fit a new bressumer if you want by simply supporting the bricks above the bressumer in the centre with two 4x2,s and a small length of scaffoldboard.

If you intend to use green oak, be aware, it shrinks. Use well seasoned wood.

 

[Penners]

Then Mrs C says we should see what is behind the bricked up fireplace.

Aaah, Thiamball - you have fallen victim to the two most dreaded words in the Married Woman's Dictionary: we and just.

Here's a typical example of their usage in the Penners household: "Could we just see whether there's anything interesting behind that wall?"

Translation: "Could you spend two days tearing out the wall, then three days building it back up again, once we've discovered that there isn't anything interesting behind it?"

Middi has given you good advice. Knocking the bricked up front out of a chimney breast isn't a big deal, provided the other three walls are sound. The very worst that could happen (assuming there's no lintel or arch of any kind) is that a triangular section on bricks will fall out and need patching up. However, I reckon that the chances of there being some kind of lintel or arch are in your favour.

If you want to be belt-and-braces, you can avoid any risk of this brick-fall by putting some supported needles through the wall at the height below which you want to dismantle.

 

[thiambal]

Penners - you have read my mind!

Right here are pics -

This is one of the whole breast (note: it is not bending out terribly on the left hand side as it appears in the photo). I have stuck my head firmly up the whole and three is definitely no arch there - only horizontal layers of brick. Not that there is an arch shaped section of cement about 4 ft up the wall so I think it has been removed

 

[thiambal]

Penners - you have read my mind! What are support needles?

Right here are pics -

This is one of the whole breast (note: it is not bending out terribly on the left hand side as it appears in the photo). I have stuck my head firmly up the whole and three is definitely no arch there - only horizontal layers of brick. Not that there is an arch shaped section of cement about 4 ft up the wall so I think it has been removed - god knows why but there is no sign of it!

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1825/1001751vr4.jpg

Here is the metal lintel about 2 ft up the wall - this entends as far as but not into the side walls

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6435/1001764ed8.jpg

This the block work imediately above the lintel.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1214/1001754kv3.jpg

Hacking away at what I thought to be a concrete slab laid over the hearth revealed it to be made of bricks - they have a different colour and texture to the house bricks - I am guessing some sort of heat resistant job...

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1958/1001759rd0.jpg

And it looks like the hearth is still there as the crack running across the bit infront of the breast also runs underneath the bricks where I have chipped them away - the hearth looks to be some sort of cast material

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9224/1001767oe6.jpg

Finally, here is a foot print from the original fire place, exactly the same size as the one in the lounge.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8617/1001768re0.jpg

So the summary is......no arch , a lintel 2 ft form the ground, most other things look OK, hearth looks like it can be rescued. Now Mrs C needs to decide on a fireplace or an attractively finished hole in the wall.

 

[plumbers mate]

In 1903 a brick built house would not have had a nicely finished off opening - it would have had a nice fireplace in front of and grate in the hole.

It's one of my pet hates - decent middle class victorian houses, or even older ones, with stripped chimney breasts and "feature" inglenook (sic) fireplaces when they would have had decent quality fireplaces in plastered and decorated chimney breasts.
Lower quality workers houses had proper fireplaces too - or else a range.

 

[thiambal]

I agree with you, and I am well aware that the house would have originally had a cast iron combination fireplace in this space (I do wonder whether it would have had a tiled one as in the lounge or a plainer one as it is the dining room)

I appreciate it is a pet hate of yours but I would make the following points...

1) At the moment (or at least until I took a hammer to it) it was bricked cement finished wall with the original builders opening removed - just as un-original as a feature nicely finished hole, the later of which would not damage the fabric of the property in any non-reversible way.

2) My preference is to put a fire place back but there is a significant cost implication £400+ and I am stuggling to find anything that is in keeping with the exisiting fireplace in the lounge. And quite frankly I am not sure we would ever have a fire in it.

3) You do not have to live with Mrs C if she does not get her way. Although I think I am bringing her around to the replacement fireplace idea.

 

[Penners]

Thiambal - the usual method of putting a lintel into a wall, below which you intend to create an opening (window, fireplace, etc) is to use "needles" to support the brickwork above. I hope the following description will be comprehensible:-

Identify the course of bricks immediately above the intended line of your lintel (ie: the bricks that will sit immediately on top of the lintel). Knock out a few of these (carefully, so you can keep and reinstall them), leaving holes spaced about every 12 - 18 inches. Remember that the brickwork most likely to fall is that in the centre of the chimney breast.

Through each hole, pass a piece of strong timber, about a foot longer the thickness of the wall, so that about 6 inches sticks out each side. These are known as needles.

Now support each end of each needle with a vertical support - usually a bit of timber (perhaps 50 x 100), wedged firmly against the floor. If there is any risk of your knocking against any of the these vertical supports sufficient to move them, then secure them with fixings to the needles and to the floor.

You can then remove the brickwork below the line of needles and install your lintel. Then make good the line of bricks above the lintel.

This method will sometimes allow an occasional extra brick or two to fall from the course at or above the needle line, but (remembering that in a situation like this brickwork will invariably collapse in a triangle above the unsupported area) this never amounts to much and is easy to make good afterwards.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[thiambal]

Cheers Penners,

Yes I think that makes sense. Although the chimney breast is only 4 ft wide in total so I am not sure how I would do this in the space - But I am sure I will find a way.

If I am replacing a lintel for it them to be covered over with plaster and a new fireplace - what would be best thing to use? as the lintel - where do you get them from?

Thanks everyone for help and advice once again